NO talk of any recent games intended, but can someone simply explain when a forward pass is a knock on?

Is it simply down to whether the officials believe the player intended to pass or not?

they are 2 completely different things, how can they be confused?

a forward pass doesnt have to involve the attacking team touching the ball again after its thrown.

its simple, if the ball travels in a forward direction after its passed. (exception is it can float forward if the ball was passed backward)

a knock on is more the ball comes loose in a forward direction, hits the ground and then is regathered.

both result in a loss of possession but they are compeltely different

if the ball is knocked backwards and regathered its obviously just play on

Obviously you didn't watch Leeds Bradford last Friday.

Apparently a knock on doesn't need to touch the ground or an opposition player to be a knock on.

sorry, my mistake, i thought it was a serious thing as opposed to a dig at a decision in a game.

It's not a dig. People seem to be saying it was the right decision and I can believe they are right.

Would just like to understand the rules a bit better is all.

You are right, it does not!!!

There's no "apparently" about it you muppet, nor is a forward pass ever a knock-on, it's either one thing or the other.

Why don't you just read the rules first, and then if you still have any sensible questions, ask them?

Instead of two sentences of abuse, why not just explain the difference then?

If the ball goes straight from one player to a team mate in front, when is it a knock on and when is it a forward pass?

if the player who loses control of the ball, its not a knock on if he regathers it before it hits the ground or it touches either one of his team mates or the opposition.
Thats why when JJB "knocked the ball forward" the it was a knock on even though it didnt touch the ground as it touched another player (the one who actually caught it) Had it not touched the other player then it would have hit the ground.

simpelz

I guess it involves a degree of subjectivity then. Surely it is arguable that JJB intended to slap the ball to a team mate, and was therefore in control of the ball?

Because I also suspected you weren't being serious.



A pass has to be "thrown". If you don't "throw" it, then it's not a pass. This is the extremeley simple bit, yet that most people who argue the toss don't, for some reason, seem to know.

If you pass it, the pass rules apply, and whether the ball travels forward relative to the pitch is irrelevant.

But if you knock it along, and it contacts either the ground or another player, the knock-on rules apply, and the only question is whether the ball travels forward relative to the pitch

There was another knock on/forward pass in the Leeds game at the weekend that Senior scored off I think. How on Earth the ref missed it I will never know.

That would be a forward slap then, not a forward pass.

Michael.

Right, good to get that cleared up in my head.

Now when does a slap become a pass?

Never. That would be a knock-on.

Michael.

both you and fa seem to be working on the assumption that an action not defined as a pass is defined as knock on! That isn't the case there is a definition of a knock on itself and there are actions and situations which fall fall under neither definition, there is no point denying that.

It is unarguable in my opinion that the jjb incident was one of those situations and the incident fell into a grey area within our rules, similar to the Webb incident the game loses nothing by tightening up these rules and making them clearer, the only way the game will lose is if people pretend that there is no problem

It doesn't really matter whether the incident last week was a forward pass or a knock on because they are both illegal moves in league. That the video ref isn't allowed to rule on forward passes is a red herring because the play was rightly called back therefore the correct decision was reached in the context of playing a game of rugby league.

are you saying the vr can't make a decision on a forward pass because the camara can play tricks and it makes it too difficult to make the correct decision yet if you decide the action was a knock rather than a pass he can make the decision because those camara angles suddenly change and all of a sudden it is infallible!

And don't fall back on fas red herring of judgment changing because the same as the rule states a forward pass needs to be passed forward it also states a knock on needs to be knocked forward! It is one hundred percent clear jjb knocked the ball backwards yet it went forward exactly the same as if he'd passed the ball backwards it would have likely gone forward

And if cummins wants the game to be reffed as fa states then why not put it in the rules

But surely if we can trust video refs to judge whether a 'slap' has gone forward, we can also trust them to judge whether a pass has gone forward.

In the build up to a try that is.

It seems weird to suggest that a video ref is capable and allowed to say whether a slap went forward but is incapable of doing the same for a pass.

I certainly think you`re right to suggest that the VR could have some involvement in forwarded passes ( he could probably see which way a player`s hands are facing) but at the same time I feel you`re still trying to say that there is no difference in the knock on and forward pass decision.

To repeat what has already been said; a knock on is relative to the ground (except after a completed tackle) whilst a forward pass is relative to the passer and the ball subsequently going forward relative to the ground doesn`t make a properly made pass forward.

There is no link between two at all. An action can be one, both or neither. Hence why any discussion of a forward pass is totally irrelevant to a knock on decision.



No grey area at all. He played at the ball. In playing at the ball he knocked it forward. It was a knock on. The VR was right not to award the try because of it.

A knock on is judged forward relative to the ground. A forward pass isn't. Hence the restriction on the VR.

It's really all quite straightforward.

Well knocking the ball backwards is neither a pass nor a knock-on, so obviously we are not. Maybe you would you like to offer some examples of what you are on about.

Michael.

Surely we have the technology now to be able to determine the momentum of the ball before and after it is passed, and the technology to be able to determine the players' and the ball's position in relation to the pitch? I've seen some pretty decent stuff in my time in lectures at Carnegie being used for match analysis. Surely this can be implimented into officiating?

Forward passes are a blight on our game and it's a disgrace that so many get missed, especially in the build up to tries, and especially if they get called to the VR and are so incredibly obvious yet cannot be chalked off.