In the wake of the Tonga game, I have heard a lot of people using the terms "loose carry" and "ball security".

Having scoured the rule books (I know- too much spare time) there is no mention of these terms: probably made up by Eddie or Stevo like the term "free play"! In fact, the NRL, the RFL and even the Rugby Union rules mention nothing about the attacking player having any responsibility to hold the ball securely.

So my interpretation is that if the ball is knocked loose by a defender, it cannot be deemed a knock on by the attacker...


[urlhttp://www.rugby-league.com/the_rfl/rules/laws_of_the_game/knock_on__forward_pass[/url

[urlhttps://www.nrl.com/portals/nrl/RadEditor/Documents/NRL15_1651%20NRL%20Laws%20%20Interpretations_A4_Brochure_FA_2_Proof.pdf[/url

[urlhttp://laws.worldrugby.org/?law=12.1&language=EN[/url

If the ball was knocked loose by the defender perhaps, but Whitehead didn't do that. He did pull at the attackers arm which forced him to lose it.

See them a dime a dozen and if it happened in the 1st minute no one would even be debating as anything but a knock on. McGuire did the exact same on Eden in the GF and only got praise for a great tackle.

It was a loose carry end of, in fact it was s knock on plain and simple. If that is ball stripping let's just ban tackling.

People making a fuss about this are just silly people who like to make a fuss.

Also how many forward passes did Tonga get away with on the build up to two out of the three tries but let's not make a fuss.

Looking in the wrong section that’s why:

Losing possession 8. If a tackled player loses possession of the ball at the moment of impact with an opponent or with the ground, play shall proceed unless stopped for some other reason, e.g. the ball has been knocked forward. A player in possession brought to his knees or brought to the ground on his back may still pass the ball – provided he has not made it evident that he has succumbed to the tackle. He should not be wrongly penalised otherwise all players will become reluctant to pass the ball as the tackle nears completion in case they too are penalised. The continuity of play would consequently be adversely and unnecessarily affected.

Stealing ball 9. Where a player steals the ball from a player on whom he is effecting a tackle, play will be allowed to continue. Where two or more players are effecting the same tackle - irrespective of whether all but one “drops off” the tackle, and the ball is subsequently taken from the tackled player, a penalty will be awarded against the player or players effecting the tackle.

he knocked it on after contact in the tackle, his hands were the last to be in contact with the ball before it hit the ground, the England defender did not knock it on into his body either (the ball was still in situ after Whitehead had his hand on the ball, the ball came out of Fafita's hands, ergo it is a knock on as per the laws of the game. Your interpretation is incorrect according to the laws of the game.
How difficult is that for you and many others to grasp?
Here, Fafita is just about to lose control of the ball and is moments before it hits the ground, Whitehead's hands are nowhere near the ball, the last person to have hands on the ball before it hits the ground is fafita, so according to the laws of the game it is a knock on, plain and simple

What's dissapointing is the tremendous last gasp effort from Whitehead that caused him to loose the ball has largely gone unnoticed. If that's not playing until the last seconds what is? And then that fat sod had the cheek to jump around like he'd won the game and been badly done to. IT WAS REEFED REF, REEFED. Pee off fatso. Had a chip on their shoulder the entire game, everytime there was a decision sgainst them even if correct the coaching staff were shaking their heads. It was as if they thought they had a right to special treatment because they were the underdogs and because they were a story.

Better luck next time, unless that is the turn coat fecks are playing for NZ and aus again.

Thanks for that, Fully. Seriously for once, do you also have the definition of "the same tackle" as it looked very much like the first attempted tackle had been broken a split second before Whitehead's "elbow tap" (new coinage?). Is that the same tackle?

Do we also have a decent definition of "stealing the ball"?

That's the trouble with laws (be they of the game, of the land or of the international community), they are often worded ambiguously. At least on here the ambiguities merely lead to lively (sometimes heated) debate rather than barristers et al squeezing a disgraceful rub out of their punters, sorry, clients.

The Ref saw it as he saw it in real time and, with no dissenting voice from the touch judge, called it as it would have been (and was) called here.

There were many dissenting voices when the video ref was first mooted. On the whole it has been a success but will cease to be if everything is sent upstairs. We'll all end up fatter than Yanks if we have to get through twenty burgers waiting for each game to finish!

Whitehead barely touched the ball if at all. He basically jarred Fifita's arm and he dropped it. Correct call by the ref.

Whitehead made the tackle of the tournament, sadly the fake newsers are making everyone see something that isn't there.

Yes, first point of contact was bottom of shoulder and top of bicep, there was slight contact with the ball as he pulled the arm for a second. When the ball was lost in the carry Whitehead was already horizontal on the ground.

when you look at every game played not just the world cup ever game in super league and all leagues their is all ways something that you do not think is right but that's the way the games are played

Superb last gasp tackle by Whitehead. He saved our bacon that's for sure. Shame about the whining afterwards from some Tongan supporters but I expect if the boot had been on the other foot it would've been the same reaction.

It was never a try. I don't think anyone would be talking about it, had it happened in another game, or even earlier in this one. People just love a bit of controversy.

Key question to always ask in these situations is what decision would be made if it were anywhere else on the field, and that to me is loose carry, knock on.

Some? Have you seen the comments on YT, there's apparently a petition with allegedly 50,000 signatures to it calling for the game to be replayed/ref to be hung drawn and 1/4'd, video ref to look at it etc.
Pretty much every man, woman and child from Tonga/Pacific island nations is calling the ref bent, the game is bent, white mans rules and so on.
I don't agree, the reaction if we'd lost it in the dying seconds like that would be nowhere near that of the tongan's or other countries 'fans' sticking their oar in.

Don't read YT or Facebook comments sections is a good rule to live by.

I was watching the highlights package after watching the game live (on tv), I just read the top comments and it was incredible what was being said, how vociferous, how nonobjective and how numerous which was what my point was in response to the previous poster

I think the commentators were very unfair on the ref too. Had he had the slightest doubt he would have gone to the VR. He had a perfect side on view, and saw what the cameras did, that Fifita was guilty of a loose carry and Whitehead's tackle made him drop it. They complain about refs using the VR too much, then when he makes the call they whinge, mainly because it didn't go the way they wanted it too.

I really don't buy the whole Tonga being better/more deserving stuff. That last 5 minutes or so was as much down to England clocking off and then panicking as through anything Tonga did. Whilst Australia are likely to beat england, I think they'd put a bigger score on Tonga by moving their big forwards around far more than England did.

I'm actually hoping all this negative stuff works in Englands favour. Nobody likes being told they don't deserve to be where they are especially if they think they do. The one thing that always brings the best out of the British is backs against the wall so long as it's heartfelt and for real. It's not even a cliche I've seen it myself time and time again.

England can feed off that as a goal that truly unites them. If there is one way to prove your worth then giving your very best in a final has to be it.

It probably won't be enough to win but it might be enough to bring a bit of real passion back into the interaction alone game.

Finally I'm not a huge fan of 'the biff' but I'd make an exception this week. If I were to see that level of commitment return I may start wearing my England shirt again. I'm not being daft either, the Aussies have never responded well when teams get into them. They have gotten used to being respected with teams holding off allowing them to show off. You disrupt that sense of entitlement they have and they will lose composure and that's half the battle.

They won't look like supermen when they are being legally carried off by the bucket load. I exaggerate but you get the idea.

No respect - No backward steps - Never admit it's over
It might just work with a big dollop of luck

He might get knocked for being on the starting team-sheet but Batemans about the only one who's got it in him, ain't he?

Compare to the semi? against Aus where Hall's finger tips definitely touched the ball in the last few seconds & the VR never gave it. Now that was robbed. The reaction was far more reserved than Tonga.

Having read the comments on YT (sorry Seth) I hold my hand up. Those idiots have taken whinging to whole new levels. Pathetic.

Maybe against their backs/halves, but he's like Scrappy Doo compared to their forwards. The problem I've found with Bateman is he isn't that smart in these situations, a fight early doors deep in their own half when they are in possession is great, but he would just as likely do it in possession on his own goal line, kickable range late in the game etc. I'm sure Graham, Burgess x2 and Walmsley would be fine with a bit of biff.

Not about size size though, innit?
It's what's inside.
If it was Bateman against a big pudding like Aaron Woods I know who my coin would be on.

I admire your optimism, and Bateman certainly wouldn't back down, but no, I think Woods would laugh at him, and we would be a man down.