This has some considerable way to go before rivaling the jvt. At least we are still vaguely on topic. Jvt wasn't about rugby for the last 100 pages or so.

If he's as good as ppl think we could do with his marketing nouse we could really need it.

Bit rude? But no, I'm in Fact land. I don't want or need you or anyone to say "You are right", I posted the info to inform, and as it is a crucial point. You can take the truth or leave it, up to you, I don't care.

Btw I believe Adey accepts that I am correct. If you doubt that, you could always ask him

JVT was a lot of the time the most brilliant, superb thread. Of course, it was the ultimate in thread drift, and had no connection with JVT whatsoever beyond its infancy. That it actually had zero to do with JVT, which baffled and gave consternation to those dipping in the thread with comments like "You lot still moaning about this", thus making utter muppets of themselves, was one of its peculiar strengths and attractions. I don't know why it got pulled, it was continuing on as one of the most entertaining threads ever. Shame nobody archived it, too.

In fairness FA, you have now posted several times that there will be NO points deductions. Now, you are suggesting that there MIGHT be a points deduction.

Sounds like a bit of back-pedalling to me in all honesty.

Could be a bit of back-pedalling by the RFL

Well Lamb was up at the club the other day for a meeting with the current board. Wonder if the plan is to bring him into the current structure down the road?

The RFL are in a hole. My clear understanding was that they had indicated to the new owners that give x, y and z there would be no points deduction, but then the club dropped a major one by a public statement. That put the RFL into a no-win hole. I can see the reason for their ire. I'd be apoplectic too. I am hoping that it is not enough for them to stamp their feet and go back on it.

If they choose to do something different, sadly that is outside my control, shocked though you may be. If you are told by X that in certain circumstances, they are minded to do Y, but you then blab and make the RLF look like it's a carve up (and it really wasn't; it seemed to me perfectly reasonable question to ask, and perfectly reasonable for the RFL to give them a steer). But the formal decision is yet to be taken, at a meeting with a number of decision makers present, some of whom may not be happy bunnies.

I see paranoid man from Wakefield is actually managing to lower his standing even further.

What Keighley?

Everyone seems to accept the RFL seem to make the rules up as different scenarios come about.

Even the Bulls recent history since September is incredibly complicated.
I stand by my previous statement that OK suggested the "punishment" for refusing to commit to pay BBH creditors.

I see nothing but speculative guesswork in the link of Hannahs T & A article where Sutcliffe confirms the likely outcome.

Remember All bids needed to be "unconditional"
He in suggesting the punishment probably hoped he would get the second hand car complete with the engine.
My understanding was other bidders were trying to force the RFL hand as to whether they could buy back Odsal.which may have been what the unconditional statement was about.
He should certainly have known he met the fit proper test.

I guess it was Ok"s idea in order to persuade the RFL and Super League clubs that continued membership of Super League could be guaranteed.

The buyer was effectively getting the club for free as the £240k paid for the assets covered only Guilfoyles firms costs to date in admin and any future costs of liquidation.Which P & A handled.

What the new owner should have then ensured was that the new company had sufficient funding to ensure this did not happen again.
At the outset of ownership players and other staff contracts going forward a year were known.

If income levels were not sufficient to meet those fixed overheads (as they were not) protective steps should have been taken.
Which they were not and the club appears to have dwindled along to a point of no return even some months after Ok"s heart problems.
Quite why, when there was no precedent OK should have thought super league membership was in doubt I know not, but as said they appear to make it up as they go along and it must have been suggested that MAY come about.
Though it would have been by no means certain as the clubs would recognise Bulls drawing power (for their own interest)in terms of crowd.

Ok was a fool not to invite other investment.Untill too late.
When he clearly (as the current new lot)did not have the personal resources to meet annual losses of over £1.2 million.

Including approaching a £200k loss on a 80"s pop concert.What a joke.Did someone say that everyone sang "Happy Birthday"to him that night?

The position is that in none of the current situation have the RFL publically said anything about whether membership of Superleague cannot be guaranteed.

So one assumnes that the license granted until the end of this season is not under threat.
Given that the punishment of half sky money is still there till November 2014.

Which leaves the question of points deduction.

The current (and likely to be confirmed ongoing)lot have said they will talk to creditors.
But not Ok.
He will get nowt Mr Moore said.
He is a creditor and if his numbers are to be believed may (or may not ) be quite a significant one.
So if he is not to be paid how can the RFL not give 6 points off.

The Bulls may aswell then pay none of the creditors.
You cannot pick and choose in insolvency usually.
Its either 20p in the £ for all or none.Or £1 in the pound as seems to be bandied.

The whole thing is a mess and Adey is right yet again The RFL (given this thing is happening here and elsewhere and will continue to going forward all the time as clubs chase the dream)need to have a full and complete set of transparent rules.

One would not expect a game to KO and at half time say well Wakefield you play the second half under that rule and Cas you play under that.
Its absolute amateurism.

As I read the current rule its clear.
Creditors not paid 6 point deduction.
Sadly the money owed to OK will impact.
It could get as daft as him threatening to sue the RFL for actions that affected his debt.

What a dradfull mess Big Nigel.

What is a good suggestion from Adey is that ALL superleague clubs should be required to have quarterly audited accounts submitted to Redhall.To sniff these problems out for the good of the game generally before it gets to this farce.
And FARCE it certainly is.

As things stand the Bulls will not have "filed" any accounts since those pertaining to 2010

So no one really knows wherte all the money went or came.

It is not lost on me that the Bulls, a business with a history of insolvency,a turnover of approaching £2.8 million,A payroll cost of £2.7 million employed just one accounts clerk on a salary I would expect the girl who serves me my fish and chips would be on.

Madness Khan.

And then it was all his fault when HMRC issued a winding up petition in May last year.
Poor kid reading that in the Telegraph Argus.
"The accounts departments oversight".

What a lot of Bullshi* this nightmare has become.
I feel sure The RFl will feel some responsibility in that regard through a vague rulebook they expect clubs to abide by.

Another complication could be this lot may be viewed as getting the club cheap if they don't pay the creditors.

They have contracts to honour till November most of the money gone and a likelihhod the Bulls will continue to make £1 million losses going forward until
1.All staff costs can be trimmed without massive redundancy and other associated costs.
2.Overheads are brought under control that sees even Bars making a loss
3.Full improved sky funding is available again.

The RFL do their damndest to protect the players contracts.

So of course SL status will not be threatened.
There is nowhere for them to go now.

I would take the 6 points,offer to pay no creditor unless a windfall bonanza came the clubs way and tell the playerws to earn their contracts by staying 3rd botton at least come September.

Insolvency has cost the Bulls some fine young playerws the Academy has developed.

That Academy costs a significant amount each year to run.

This cannot keep happening.

I keep harping on about it but Bullbulder should offer a fans share issue and if legally possible take on the running of that Academy with existing coach and Staff.

To protect the future of the Bulls if the doomsday scenario came about.
Which still could believe me.

The numbers are truly frightening and Andrew Calvert is a very brave and honourable man.
We had those in WW1 too thank god.
But Leaders thought man had developed some superhuman power and could walk directly into machine gun fire and live.

The RFL appear full of those sort of generals.
Make provision Adey and your good erstwhile body of Bullbuilder.

Because this whole scenario gives me the shivers going forward and I am glad one or two do recognise who I am and perhaps appreciate I may Know what I am talking about.
No hard feelings FA.

We are all on the same side but maybe just differ on the way forward to get over it.
Eric Morecambe had the right answer for Andre Previn once as he played chopsticks out of tune.
We can in essence argue about everything.
Just an example of the complete farce and lunacy of this situation P & A and Guilfoyle were offering the Coral Stand as part of the assets for sale.
Which Ok probably thought he secured.
The Rfl now claim that was theirs as part of Hood giving up a 140 year lease for a 30 year lease with he RFl.
You could not make it up.
And that pratt got £240000 fee without even properly checking out what he could sell and not sell.Shambles.

Could be law suits down that line too so not surprised the RFL are very quiet.

A massive can of worms.

BUT THERE IS NOT TIME

So who are you?

I to would like to know.

No I'm sorry but six points AND half sky money again would be plain wrong. I would settle for six points but full money or preferably no points and half money but to do both again would be just impossible. And I for one would want the RFLs explanation.

It would be remarkably ironic if the self named "saviour" of the Bradford Bulls is the one who ends up bringing us to our knees.

Did he mention the first World War and Eric Morcambe somewhere in the middle of all that?

Nurse, he's out of bed again

The half sky money is only going to be paid until November as part of the agreement made with Ok.Cannot and will not be changed.

6 points should be taken and stuff the creditors?

Dangerous given a large part of the creditors are again the crown and I include Bradford Council in that category as a statutory authority of HM Government.

Adey has pointed to the attitude to future public funding of the game following crusaders and no doubt other insolvencies that "robbed" the crown.

But this lot may have no choice.
Unless they have a £50 pound note printing machine we don't know about,they have been frank and honest in admitting they had little.

Now I seem to recall Gerry Sutcliffe and Ok stating quite honestly early in their tenancy that applied to OK aswell.

So just how does a loss making business of £1.2 million annually survive.

With owners (soon to be confirmed)that admit to having little personal wealth to throw away at the black hole?
Where one now departed (as not fit) had to resort to Wonga types to in all probability pay the wages for September or October 2013?

Where not a bank would touch it with just a few expensive easy chairs and tables and ancillary bar and other equipment as assets.

And a sympathetic or nepotistic partner in Bradford Council owed now in excess of £311000 will be unwilling to fund any more.
Given that its election year for local council in a couple of months and the electorate have been well and truly shafted by OK and Sutcliffe through this past 17 month shambles.

Rent had to be written off re Tong training base in the last insolvency and 6 months (and counting)is owed again.At a £40000 a year rent.

Enormous amount is owed yet again to the council for business rates (again had to be written off just 17 months ago aswell 45000).

So when Adey says the business was not bust last September he says that without the priviledge of knowing the facts.
I say it was.
Big time.
Through a trio of sad musketeers.

That when it came down to all for one and one for all.... Sutcliffe went silent never to utter a word again,Khan had heart problems (not surprised) and Whitcu*t (love that Adey)cannot be found, was deemed on account of several insolvencies he had been associated with as not fit and proper.And has by all acoounts made a hopeless situation far worse through organising the disaterous 80"s concert,debenturing the assets to a loan shark in desperation and ensuring his speciality (failed bars and hotels)expertise was inflicted on the Bulls.

How can the bars make a loss on a turnover of over £300000 is beyond me.Where purchases for the bars exceed sales (???? wtf)for 6 months to February last year.
There must have been some incredible free quaffing going on,some rather substantial till dissapearances or perhaps pints were been sold for less than they cost.

I did hear a story that a pint was been sold for say £3.20 and a half £1.20 at some point.

So out go the three muskateers tail firmly between crack in the cheeks and enter the three endintears if fans don't turn up in droves.

I wish them all the luck in the world.

Robbie is not helping in trying to placate fans by announcing Gale new improved contracts for the like of Gale at a time of such uncertainty simultaneously as the RFL are having to pay the last month wages.

And in extending that contract beyond next November for another year when there is no guarantee the club will not this year be relegated and face little sky money in championship with super league contracts still in place.

For a player who hardly played last year due to a dreadfull injury.Well done Robbie...you certainly like your gamble don't you.

Believe me fans if superman fails to emerge as a white knight with shed loads of dosh over the coming months OR fans don't turn up at at least 10000 every week this thing will continue to be insolvent.

I suggest Bullbuilder if they bought the Tong school training base equipment make sure that is registered to them now and advise the landlord (Bradford Council)of that position.

Otherwise in event of doomsaday it will go the same way as the speedway crash barriers and be on its way crushed in a container via bootle container port to return as a Nissan.

Wooden top is right.

This is no time to be extending the wage bill.

Cos these 3 have not got it.
They will have enough on for many months meeting existing contracts.
Which are collosal.

We could always sending Robbie Paul down to Napoleons casino.
The chips are down sadly.
We have run out of mugs.

He is either "Ken from Widnes" or a close relation

Some of the losses make no sense to me whatsoever.

I found it hard to believe that the 80's concert lost 100k but those bar losses are unbelievable.

I'm sorry - and can't say anything without seeing the books myself - but that's ing .

80"s pop concert lost nearer £175000.Theres transparency for you fans.

Purchases for stock for bar exceeded sales in the 6 months to 28.2.12 by a few thousand.
Not lost on me Whitcut (and perhaps Khan)involved in a succession of failed companies that operated (without ever filing accounts)bars and hotel.

I would say that points to something very fishy and would merit serious forensic examination.
Gross Profit on alcohol margins can vary from 40 to 50 per cent.
But unless they were selling pints for say £2 and buying in the stock at £2.10 (which even a lunatic would not for 6 months)
there is something very strange there.

The whole operation from 1.9.2012 to September 2013 and right up to Whitcuts departure merits serious forensic examination.

I feel truly sorry for Andrew Calvert and his team of what started out as honest volunteers with little access to running information until Whitcut went and now have to try rescue and deal with an absolute sack of Shi*e.

They deserve your unstinting support all Bulls fans and should in no way be criticised for not having the funds to buy this player and that you akll may want.

They will have an enormous task just ensuring it survives through until November with hopefully 3rd bottom or better secured.

And after the opening results who would have bet Bulls would sit higher than moneybags Warrington?
A spirit of Dunkirk is required.

D Day can come when hopefully full sky funding returns.

I would be offering fans a 20 per cent share stake and trying to raise half a million as fans did before.
Where investors see it as a long term investment that Mr Moore correctly does.

There will be no quick fix.

Collateral Damage resembles Nagasaki August 1945.
Its a dreadfull mess

Sorry bar purchases info was to 28.12.2013 not 2012.

Though under Lord Peters tenure it might if any accounts were ever produced throw up similar difficult reading

Whatever distribution is lost, if any, it HAS to be a brand new agreement. The current owners are NOT A PARTY to the old agreement. The RFL could choose to just recoup the balance of the old club's penalty, but that still doesn't make it the same thing. That would just be an amount equivalent. It would also be nonsensical, but don't expect that would stop them.


When the old Bulls got fined half their distribution, the RFL would have gained kudos and done the right thing had that money gone to creditors. Though it would have been a roundabout way of the purchasers paying more for the club. At least that way it would have gone to creditors, not in administrator's bills, I suppose.

However, the other SLE clubs having voted to give themselves a divvy of the distribution share, we will take NO lessons from the RFL or other clubs in paying creditors of the old club. It is hypocritical in the extreme to bleat about creditors struggling to be paid, when a large sum of money from the new company that could and should help those creditors is instead snaffled and used by EACH OTHER SL CLUB. Hypocrites, the lot.


Owed by who? The problem is that the leaseholders sem to want to recoup their losses from the old club by charging the new club through the nose. The training site is crucial but we haven't signed a new lease at the exorbitant rate. HAd a deal been done at the rate offered then rent would have been paid.


Well apparently we don't have that problem this season as the bar income is not ours?


Well yes, but for a club whose formal position is "there is no money", that isn't much of a revelation.

That is not quite what I said, though.

Last September the business WAS "technically insolvent". Net laibilities or around £1.2m I'd say, based on the loss figure that was reported not long after?

The only reason it was not actually insolvent, as in unable to pay its debts when due, was because Khan was paying money in as required. Or at least sort of, since as with everything involving him the situation never seemed clear. He stopped paying money in when he stood down, did he not? And that started to precipitate the final crisis, did it not? I'm guessing that was why Whitcu*t went hunting moneylenders, to pay the next salaries, but I'll admit that was and remains conjecture.

The comment I think you are alluding to was made in the context of some of the bottom-dwellers from elsewhere stating the club was "bust" last September. (And alleging that the present board were just as cuplable, when my view was and remains precisely the opposite). I said that, provided Khan kept paying money in, it could not be "bust" - as in unable to pay its creditors as and when due. Even if it had a very very sick balance sheet. I went on to say, IIRC, that I did not expect the situation to be sustainable beyond a few more months though. The more that comes out, the more certain I am that I was right in that assertion.

Too bloody right it does.