I get your point but if we're in the bottom 4 of the top 12 maybe we're not competitive with Sts and Wigan and actually we're closer to the top group of clubs in the bottom 12. As it's a one off game against each of the top 4 from the bottom 12 who's to say how close those will be, assuming to get in the top 4 those clubs will have been playing well and are high on confidence while the bottom 4 will have been playing badly and low on confidence.

I don't think this is about structure. The clubs agreed the 12 team structure.

From what I've heard from there is a concerted move on the management of the RFL both from the SL and from within the RFL.

The key issue is obviously money from the failure to get a sponsor for the SL or RLWC and Lenaghan has also raised the issue of how money is distributed. Apparently there are voices regarding why the RFL are holding England's opening game in Wales and the double header semis are in London.

It doesn't surprise me that clubs are becoming disillusioned.

The state of finances in the game is dire. The RFL decided to ditch the Stobart deal with no backup. I have not noticed a Stobart truck with a SL picture for about 4 months. Surely this sponsorship deal would have been better continuing, until a new sponsor could be found. I remember Stevo saying on Back Chat that Stobard wouldn't re-skin their trucks, and i think the RFL hoped this would be true.

I think it's got to the point where even the big clubs (Wigan, Leeds, Saints) are worried about where the game will be in 5 years time.

If this downward trend continues, more home grown talent will be looking to leave for Aus, leaving the clubs with less local identity.

How sustainable is it having possibly 4 full time teams suddenly relegated to part time? It would be a complete disaster.

Guess that is still the great hope for expansion and projecting the image of a national game. Ok if fans fill Cardiff and Wembley but a disaster if there are 40/50,000 empty seats being broadcast.

I suspect D-Day for the game will come when the current Sky deal expires, but failure to secure any sponsorship - even van signage - is a black mark against the rfl

The top clubs will argue that being able hold onto their best players in the elite competition must take precedence over the costs of expansion, when the game's finances are so stretched.

This is only a guess on the basis of what's happened so far but I reckon Woods is on the brink.

Well, we were 9th this time round which puts us effectively in the bottom four had there been 12 clubs in the division and we've been competitive in most games. Our worst performance was probably against Hudds at magic weekend, but we also beat them at their place earlier in the season, which evens it out, I guess. Main point is that we were largely 'in' the games against the top sides and not really 'tonked' all season.

As previously pointed out though, being 'high on confidence' after going ok in a fixture list against semi-pro part-timers is no build up to playing fully professional teams. It [imight[/i happen, once in a while, in a one cup game, maybe [though very rarely does so in reality but in a [ileague situation[/i the chances of the Championship clubs beating, or more importantly gaining more points than the SL clubs, is around zero imo.

I think you also have to ask how are the SL clubs, who might be expected to finish in those lower positions, going to market season tickets? We might be playing Leeds and Wigan or it could be Leigh and Featherstone doesn't sound a very solid basis for selling tickets.

Knowing the RFL as we do, it wouldn't surprise me if they thought that issuing teams a handicap (opposition +"x" points) would solve this, this would be the worst scenario ever!

To be honest I feel the RFL are searching for some kind of 'holy Grail' which doesn't exist. There is no 'best' system for deciding who goes up or down; they all appear, in some way, defective. There might be a least worst system, and maybe, someday, we'll stumble across it...until then we'll flop about from licensing to P&R and back gain until we all forget, or maybe cease to care, where we started.

Maybe, to take another tack, there is too much micro management and the answer is to be hands off? Two divisions, straight P&R, no cap, have as many overseas players as you can get visas for and devil take the hindmost?

Wigan want to stick with 14 SL Clubs according to the Sky report at start of thread (and yesterdays Times). We would not argue against that would we?

At the moment even the elite cannot hold on to players, and there are not enough top clubs with secure finance to make a full "league". From the current SL there are question marks of one sort or other over the Bulls, London, Wakey, Castleford and HKR? Some hot seats at Red House whoever is sitting in them.

The 3 x 8 idea is a nonsense that comes about from looking at the issues the wrong way around. The focus should not be on bringing SL clubs down so Fev and Fax can compete with them but on how to build more full time clubs.

Right now there are issues with every team outwith the 8 who made the play offs. I think yourselves Widnes and Salford have the least to worry about. You would though be in greater peril if funding is cut. The 3 x 8 is a funding cut to full time clubs to fund part time clubs. That just seems wrong. A a professional sport we must support full time clubs and generate more income for the entire sport.

I would like to see a second french team in Super League, Catalans have been a success and I understand French TV would pay considerably more for a second team.

Other than that, though some people may not like it, SL should remain a closed league. It works for NFL & NRL and P&R did not work before. Ask yourself this, is there any club in England that is outwith SL that offers more to the greater game than Bradford Bulls? If there is not (as I believe) why would you introduce the very real chance of swapping them?

If fev Fax or Leigh are to get into SL we need to find a way to bring them up to that level not bring SL down to thiers. The only way to do that is generate more income.

The only real question in the short term is who to swap for more Frenchies? A club down south may be making that an easy answer.

if

The RFL saved your SL skins. A real thankyou is not given with the middle finger.

If only they could copy the model and exemplary way that Bradford Bulls have negotiated their way through this licence period they might start to climb the difficult ladder.

Quite an ammusing response from the Halifax chairman....

Even more reference of a RFL v Super League battle.

[urlhttp://www.halifaxcourier.co.uk/sport/halifax-rlfc/halifax-rlfc-news/updated-steele-urges-rfl-to-convene-meeting-of-championship-clubs-1-6123625[/url

Very well written statement by 1eagu3 who clearly feel that the proposed league changes are not welcome...

[urlhttp://www.superleaguefans.com/rugby-league/2013/10/10/1eagu3-statement-regarding-postponed-league-restructuring-meeting.html[/url

Surely the proposed 2 into 3 idea cannot get the go ahead!

Sadly, for the Courier's logic "[ithe five or six clubs who are not as important as they think they are[/i" are the same five or six who are currently attracting more money into rugby than the rest of the clubs. They may, or may not, be 'the best run' but they are the most financially sound as things stand.

tbf, it's not the Courier, but the outspoken chairman of Halifax. He's obviously wanting some of the 'pie' and looking out for his club, but a small town club would struggle to compete in today's climate. Large clubs who are attracting 5-10 thousand supporters a game are struggling to compile a squad that can challenge for the top.

The more this argument rumbles, i'm finding that i'm not even in favour of promotion relegation. A closed SL would offer some stability imo.

Actually, to be fair, SL has never been "a closed league". Promotion to it has been by licence rather than via the league, but it has always been on the agenda. What's more the idea of 'new' clubs being given a three year grace period has been one of its best attributes. To me 12 is about the minimum number of clubs; it gives 22 league games plus MW and cup games which should be financially survivable for clubs and give players some respite before internationals at the end of the season. A lot would depend on Sky, of course, if they would be happy with that number of games..

I'd love to see a Halifax team back in SL. As an area, the town [ishould[/i be large enough to sustain a professional club though, in the past, the club hasn't always had the support it deserved when in the higher division, which is disappointing.

I tend to think of Leigh's relationship with Wigan to be a bit like Keighley's with Bradford and find it hard to see them with enough support to carry a professional set up. They have a nice little ground now, and though I'm not sure about the capacity, it would certainly help.

As a regular visitor [annually, for the Bulls' visit I would consider it a sad day if the London team were dropped, or had to resign for financial reasons, from SL. They've always come across as a good club to me, from fans through to back office and in any case their membership, in the capital, is probably more totemic than [iany[/i other club, particularly in the media.

I certainly wouldn't be averse to another French club in SL. It would both spark up our league and help the treizistes to compete against union, which currently takes many players from French clubs which are, as yet, unable to offer them a proper job. Being able to retain their better young players would have the added benefit of helping the French national team, which hopefully could then provide more meaningful games for England to prepare for the Aussies and NZ. For the wider benefit of European RL it would be a good thing, imo.

Thinking outside the box, and beyond history and club self interest - OK i know it's never going to happen, but consider the following 12 club elite league:
Cumbria
West Yorks
Humberside
London
Les Basques
East lancs
Manachester
Cheshire
Glasgow
Dublin
South Wales
Les french duex
All franchises like those in American football - bigger catchments, national coverage, ability to fund quality squads - but leaving enough space in the calender to stage meaningful internationals. How would that look to a TV executive or potential sponsor? Guess its Utopia but if such a set up could bring cash into the wider game, with a guaranteed % to fund the traditional clubs and the grass roots game to develope players. i would put aside my tribal affiliation if it would secure and grow the game.

as their gates suggest that, even with their obvious high spending on the team, they should be somewhere near break even on gates and sales alone.

Every so often I think how good it would be for Fax to be back in the top division then some of their fans come on here and remind me what a bitter bunch some of them can be.

Know what you mean...but [ievery[/iclub has a few of those to be fair. Have to say the Three Pigeons is one of my favourite pre-match places.

I've said on a number of occasions that Fax was my favourite ground to visit. Great fans & great pubs.

Yep I liked Thrum Hall, being right on top of the action, patting the players on the back as they walked through the crowd from the dressing rooms, good atmosphere too, even the unspeakable toilets were funny (ankle deep in pi55). That side with Eadie, Anderson, Dixon, Beevers, Scott etc was great. I had fond memories of watching Fax until I saw that advert for the Bulls on the side of a bus in Halifax and decided to switch allegiances. COYB!

I was the same until I had a bowl of Frosties for breakfast one morning.