The game is not being killed.

HTH

It was a failed attempt at irony. The suggestion that refs are killing the game I find so ludicrous to be not believable. I think people have other issues they need help with if that is the case. I know from your posts elsewhere that you are one of the sensible tendency so find this more baffling. All you have said so far is refs need to be more consistent & Cummins tell them to be less ambiguous. I have quoted the ruling ad nauseum, what more can be said? Someone is tackled, there are hands all over the ball, it comes out - it was either stripped or lost, they are the only options, the officials have to call one or the other. Please tell me what other interpretation an official can make.

no irony at all - i'm really not clever enough for that sort of thing

there's more to RL inconsistency or bad reffing or bad interpretation or whatever we wish to call it than ball stripping (AT THE PTB) which was intended to be an example but the problem is more widespread - ie. forward passes which even you have to admit have been badly policed recently ? surely when everyone in the stands can see it why can't the TJs help out or is there some kind of directive which prevents this ? The high tackle is another grey area, the offside rule enforcement is becoming a joke, incorrect play of the ball is very rarely strictly adhered to,the tackle in the air is becoming nonsensical,scrums are a farce so just do away with them, obstruction is another grey area, the shoulder charge which really is up for discussion surely ?, et al.....
now, there are rules in place with punishments commensurate with the offences so where is the problem ? it should be a doddle for officials to get the correct decision without too much hassle but no ! the wide ranging interpretation by refs - that word 'inconsistency' again is killing the game as an enjoyable pastime for me ! what's so difficult about policing a game of RL ?
Liason with the officials & clubs is needed to get things sorted or the RFL needs to get refs better trained to cope with the modern day game
ok, we know officials will get it wrong occasionally but the past couple of seasons have been an utter joke added to that some VR decisions that beggar belief !
there have even been occasions this season where conversions or penalty kicks have been ruled out when the ball has clearly been inside the posts !!! and that's WITH video proof ! - I give in.....

None. It's primarily a call for what has been seen by the ref - stripping or lost ball. If he has seen neither and the ball is loose (whether it goes forward or not seems immaterial) what does he call? He must make a call - there is no alternative.
He might consider the body shape and hold of the ball from the attacking player, together with the body shape and tackling arm(s) of the defender(s) as to the probable cause. But that's then only a judgement call of best guess forced on him.
Players of all games practice cheating and are coached to do so. RL at the top level is no exception. This makes it hard for even a good ref to do his job well.

AS a HKR supporter I thought the Ref got most of the crucial decisions right and made some weird decisions for both teams. FWIW the Bulls deserved the win and none of his decisions or lack of affected the outcome.

The problem with your suggestion that the crowd is the best indicator is that everyone in the home stands yells “forward” at very regular intervals when on the majority of occasions, it is no such thing. They also do not yell “forward” when a home player makes a suspect pass. Of course the odd forward pass will be missed, though the prominent ones I’ve seen do seem to be TJ calls not ref calls. But I certainly don’t see it as a problem on the increase.


Nope.


Look, it never helps your argument to start making strident claims that something is “a joke” or “a disgrace”. This is worth evidentally zero. Again, offside seems to me to be policed pretty much as it ever was, and in TV games where you have the luxury of slo mo and rewind, you can see that most of the time there actually isn’t a problem.


Here the refs certainly do the RFL’s bidding, as I understand it the player only needs to make a “genuine attempt” . You may disagree with this, but it’s not a ref issue, take it up with the RFL.


Absolutely not. I can’t easily remember any instance where a certain tackle in the air was not penalized. Have you any examples, or are you just listing every possible infringement, and claiming for each that the reffing of it is a joke and a disgrace?


Again, the scrums are what the RFL want them to be, it is nothing to do with the refs.


Indeed it is. How is that observation in any way relevant to your general argument that refs are crap? In fact, I’d say that disallowing of tries or the giving of penalties for obstruction is one area where we have had MORE consistency and clarity this season, move behind a runner and you will be penalized.


It is being discussed, but again, what’s your point? At the moment it is legal in many circumstances and illegal in few, but I see no evidence that the referees are doing anything wrong with regard to it?


No, sorry, I’m not having that. What al?


Having several thousand people like you screaming rubbish, swearing you are blind, all of whom could do better, and half of which entirely disagree with the other half over nearly every decision you make. Maybe you should try it.


.. but not as far as a disgrace, yet, then? Oh well, that’s something.

hows about if the ref asks the TJs for help occasionally ?

in two televised games at the GB (one for SKY and the other Bien Sports) messers Thaler & Roby gave penalties in important positions and once in both games the original decision was overturned and the penalty awarded to the other side - obviously the refs had had feedback from the VR - just how it should be, the correct decision was made - it's so easy !

it's reassuring to know that actually, all is well !



thanks for your learned views, I will sleep soundly tonight in the knowledge that the game is safe in their hands.

Thank Christ for that. I decided I wasn't going let this issue slip but was having second thoughts.

Its a thankless task being the man in the middle but you see less of the touch judges involvment than years ago.Who would want to be a ref not me thats for sure but then again some dont help themselves as they cant count the number of tackles made.

Is that because they are now wired up so don't need to flag for the referee's attention for every incident?

Yes it is one of the reasons the other is if they got involved in every little thing the game would slow down.We can all slate the ref but when all said and done how many would give it a go.

I'll never agree that not being able or willing to do something denies you the right to criticise. If a roofer 'fixed' your roof and it still let in the rain I think you'd moan a bit too!

Having said that, judging by some of the replies to this thread it's clear that some only have a hazy idea about even the basic rules, so maybe it's better they don't 'have a go'?

I think the refs have a pretty strict test on the rules before they're allowed out with a flag, never mind a whistle.

As for miscounting six tackles, funnily enough, even though it is one thing I've seen refs downgraded for, it is one I feel a lot of sympathy about. Trying to keep a number in your head when running all the other considerations and judgements they have to make every second of the game through their minds, the wonder is they muck it up on as few occasions as they do.

For what it's worth I don't believe the modern refs are any worse than Billy Thompson, Eric Clay Fred Lindop and all the rest, the modern lot are certainly much fitter. What is true, is they got a lot more respect from players and fans and didn't have to compete with slo-mo repeats of all their decisions on TV.

There seems to be a lot of posts going back to golden ages just now, strange, back in that golden era (which didn't exist), IIRC the fans in the pub were just the same as ever, with complaints about referees.

I have to agree with all that and modern refs are fitter especially Halibut who is super fit and just watching his pre match warm up is tiring

it's not a case of going back to the Golden Age, whenever that was, if it ever did exist though the Billy Benyon days were a bit special IMO - I think now is a Golden Age as RL is more accessible to more people but the pressures put on refs or, the pressures they put themselves under makes it frustrating to many as reflected in their inconsistent decision making - the refs aren't any better or worse than say, thirty years ago it's just the spotlight is more on the officials than ever - I certainly wouldn't want the job though I do believe the pressure on them is greater than ever and I believe that is reflected in the decline of standards over the past few seasons

more pressure on refs with more exposure = more inconsistent decision making maybe ?

But then, only a line or two later, confusingly,




Er, so . . . refs are no worse . . . but there has been a decline of standards. Okaaaaay...






Don't buy that at all. Why would this tend towards "inconsistency"? And of course the most critical decisions in many games have been taken away from the ref altogether if he chooses to hand them over to the VR.

not confusing at all FA

the refs are about the same, just fitter as we have established it's just their working conditions have changed maybe ?

there's more pressure or scutiny on them nowadays hence the possible decline in decision making, not always helped by the VRs

No you argued that while refs are no worse, standards have declined. You can't reconcile the two.

Fitness is not the issue. Refs only need to be fitter nowadays because the players are, and because the game over the 80 minutes is miles faster than it was. Old time refs were as fit as they needed to be in their era. And Stan Wall was probably as fit then as many officials now.

I think there is more pressure today, that's for sure, but whether they are better or worse is impossible to say. The assumption, implicit in the question, is that they [iwere[/i better in the past, but as we agreed, there wasn't the same scrutiny from TV as there is now - the same TV which causes the extra pressure - and without that same level of scrutiny we're not really in any position to make any meaningful comparison.

One of the problems may be that some of the rules cause problems. Ball stealing is a case in point; the defender has the right to prevent an off-load by trapping the ball but he's not allowed to strip it unless one on one, so defender has hand on ball and it comes free. With the speed of events, often with other players coming between the official and the action, he has to decide how it came out and make a fairly instant decision, often when shown in slo-mo it turns out to be, well,[i probably[/i wrong, even then, with the cameras, from several angles, it still isn't always possible to make the correct decision, as the truth to whether he [ideliberately[/i stripped the ball, rather than tried to prevent a pass, is often only in the players mind. But, with ball on floor, the ref [ihas[/i to make a decision with the only certainty that he'll anger half the fans..

The same applies to deciding if the ball was deliberately played at to determine who gets head and feed - it's a nightmare. The sheer speed at which the game is played today also makes the referees job more difficult and I'm sure mistakes are made but equally these should even out over the season - just as they always did.

My own view is that had the old time refs had been subject to the same scrutiny that the modern ones have to live with, they would have been found to be equally wanting and Sgt Major Clay would have soon been back in the ranks. They though, were respected far more by the players than their counterparts today - their decisions were accepted and they got on with the game without encircling the man to make him change his mind, nor were the decisions dissected the following day by everyone with a keyboard and a Sky subscription! Course, that's just my view and it would be fascinating if we could bring out the film of an old game and, retrospectively give it the video treatment we get now.

yes I can - the refs are making more inconsistent decisions - it doesn't mean they are better or worse, it's just that their working environment has changed - as you said, the game is faster but we demand better decision making

the public (us) demands more from the officials and most of them aren't consistent enough to keep people like me happy - i'm glad you're satisfied with the current crop of refs, i'm not

Stan Wall ? I recall Kel Coslett nearly thumping him once at Post Office Road about 40 odd years ago when some dodgy decisions went against the mighty Saints ! I recall we lost narrowly - boy was he poor that day and a Saints fan to boot ? Is he still about BTW ? he used to be a regular at KR

I wholly disagree that there is any evidence modern refs "are making more inconsistent decisions". From the evidence of my own eyes and recollection I do not believe that there is any more or any less inconsistency now than ever there was. Certainly refs were not booed any less.


But no, we don't. I mean, some may do, but I'd reckon the vast majority just want to watch a flowing game, not over-disrupted by stoppages. (I'd also technically agree that most just want consistency in decision making, but actually that is a blatant and unashamed lie by them, the truth is that they want the ref to give all the calls to their team!)


Yes, I am satisfied with them, seem like a decent bunch, and overall do an outstanding job. For a recent example, the way Ganson handled the pressure cooker Wire/Wigan game. A masterclass.


I remember well hundreds of occasions when refs had to be protected by police and police horses on the trek back up the Odsal hill, so plus ca change. Wasn't Stan one of the Saints run on staff for many years? Might still be. Seem to remember him bringing out the kicking tee for Sean Long every time. Or it could have been his twin!

good to hear you are happy with the reffing standards - nice to see a satisfied customer

I respectfully however, disagree with your opinions except to say that Ganson did handle that game pretty well

best wishes

No, it was definitely Sean Long.

But then I would have said [ifor[/i his twin. Can standards of grammar and comprehension really have plummeted to such depths out in Ilkley, pater?