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that's my mid morning chuckle sorted

It's not that simple. Leaving aside the fact that few companies pay all collected VAT into a separate account to pay over quarterly, even if they did, what if after the event HMRC decree that something was VATable - but you didn't charge VAT?

All you can do is pay, or appeal. And usually you are demanded to pay up anyway, regardless of appeal, on the basis only if your appeal succeeds would you get a refund.

For example, if the value of your service was £100,000. You didn't charge VAT. You think you have £100,000. HMRC decides it was VATable, so you are deemed to have charged £83,333 + VAT, and to owe the VAT man £16,667.

That's OK if you have a spare £16,667 kicking around to pay pending appeal, but a problem if you haven't.

I have no clue what it is, but on the face of it, we must have a case for disputing the assessment, as I can't imagine either missing a basic VAT requirement, nor going to the expense of an appeal if there were not at least strongly arguable reasons. Unless and until we know more, you can't say whether anyone needs to be "held accountable". I don't know who does the Bulls' day to day and VAT/tax accounts.

I'm making an assumption here, but if the accounts records were up to date, factual and recorded in a professional manner, then the HMRC wouldn't need to disagree, or demand more tax to be paid.

Each couple of months sees the Bulls subject to a Winding Up Order. Each one of these Orders would have gone through a "Debt Process" prior to the issue (or indeed threat) of a Winding Up Order.

The excuses are starting to run dry for me. Mr Green keeps beating this drum about how he intends to run the club like a business. Part of running a business is managing the accounts accordingly.

I thought you just took the taxman out for a bite to eat, you all had a good laugh and then forget about the 'debt' and went home friends? Or is that just when you owe £million upon £million?

Sorry but that's patent bollox.

HMRC isn't fit for purpose, and hasn't been for years. They will gladly bankrupt some bloke with a tiny shop in a backstreet, or issue automatic fines and penalties for struggling businessmen a day late with their accounts, whilst doing illegal sweetheart deals with multinationals and allowing blatant tax fiddles to rip off the UK taxpayer, for example the use of offshore companies hiding behind LLPs. Through their lax attitude, London has become money laundering central, with whole swathes of the capital now bought through laundered funds and owned through secret offshore trusts. HMRC are a fscking disgrace.

HMRC C*O*U*L*D issue MEGA assessments to every one of those tax avoiding businesses and fscking well SHoULD but they don't. Of course, half the people in power benefit greatly from the blind eye turned to the major fiddles. I'm sure that's a pure coincidence.

That's all well and good. If you haven't paid VAT on something you should have then that is not HMRCs fault and I should imagine they work on the premise that ignorance is no defence.

Correct.

Based on what very little we know (and what I know of VAT) I suspect the most likely scenario is that we disagree about whether or not something we have sold/done is liable for VAT. We (the Club) have probably said it's not and HMRC have probably said it is, and raised the assessment. In the end we could be right like Greggs were (I won't bore you with the details) and the assessment could be dropped.

Or we could slip into doom and damnation. Potato Potarto.



I hope you're buying all these coats from the Club shop!

will this get resolved before the winding up order date of 5th September? I wonder if we do go into administration if Bullbuilder or one of the other supporters group would step in and look at taking on the club? Similar to what happened at Rochdale Hornets a few years ago where I donated £20 to become a shareholder but without voting powers.

I hope you are right.

Believe bullbuilder have already said unnofficailly they arent in a position to even consider this.

who is the official spokesman? have they made a statement about the latest winding up petition? I think if the worse happens and green comes out with the begging bowl e as supporters should really look at a buyout.

Or at least have a place on the board.

Businesses have disagreements over VAT all the time. I am less bothered by this than if it was non payment of PAYE. I expect it to be sorted.

The only worry is that the club under Hood and Bennett tried a wheeze to avoid paying VAT on season tickets saying they were "memberships" and should be exempt. This rather transparent attempt to get out of paying VAT was rightly frowned on by the taxman and was one of the reasons we went into admin. I just hope we haven't done something like that again.

Time will tell.

Quit worrying everyone. There's nothing we can do anyway.

If the whole poophouse goes up in flames it's all over. BullBuilder will not be stepping in to run the club I can guarantee that!

I wonder what we could suddenly be disputing with HMRC over. I've been trying to think of any new revenue streams that might have started in recent months and all I can think of is the launch of Southbank?
I suppose they could be disputing the input tax claims on something, difficult to say really.

It may not be all that sudden. Didn't someone say something recently about accounts not having to be filed until August and the club still haven't done theirs? Perhaps this is related in some way (i.e. account have been filed and there's a discrepancy, or they haven't been filed because the figures don't add up). Pure speculation I should add.

My mistake, all businesses in the UK are obviously subject to multiple Winding Up Orders over the course of the year.

Nothing to see here, carry on regardless.....

But this is the third one this year. does anyone know when Marc green is due back from Ibiza? maybe he might call a supporters forum to explain the past few months to put supporters at ease?

I know sometimes companies have to pay the 'expected' tax on items, which is why it's important that the companies accounts are up to date.

Otherwise the HMRC make a 'calculated guess' and request payment. I would expect any large sized business to be able to quickly refer to income/expenditure streams and provide the evidence as requested.

As much as everyone hates the tax man, i'm sure the current process isn't....

Tax man "We estimate you owe "X" amount in VAT"

Company "We disagree, we think it's more in the region of "Y""

Tax man "Pay up or we'll issue a Winding Up Petition!"

I get what your saying, my post had a hint of Sarcasm.

In our club's case it often seems more a case of

Tax Man: "We estimate you owe "X" amount in VAT"

Company: "What's VAT?"

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none of this eases the supporters nerves and these winding up orders are biggest scaremongers of all - from the club. if HMRC had been paid on time we wouldn't be worried about the clubs future.
Why can't Green or Ferres from wherever they are on holiday put something on bulls TV to ease our nerves. the communication from the club is appalling.

will the club pay VAT on bulls TV subscriptions?

It's not just the recent WUP that worries me. The previous issues seemed to point towards admin issues and/or misunderstandings between the club and the creditor(s).

I'm conscious that some people could look at us talking about these concerns and accusing us of contributing to the scaremongering, but there comes a point where peoples are starting to ask questions of the current setup. Even looking at the previous owners, we were never in the Gazette as much as we have been this year.

I would expect so, they are charging customers for a service.

We'll never know.

I'm now in the realms of not giving a damn.