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| Quote ="Cibaman"I don't agree with the criticism of the RFL.
They went to absurd lengths with the stadium deal to keep the Hood regime afloat. They've since gone to absurd lengths with the Sky fine to make sure that there was no realistic prospect of recovery.
On average they've handled the situation perfectly.'"
(Except it's no laughing matter). Bit like their officials and levelling-up the penalty count, eh...?
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| They deny that as well....strange how it happens soooo often though...
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| Not gonna give my opinion cause it counts for sod all and would probably be appreciated even less.
......So all the best guys and I hope however many steps backwards you take, it'll lead to taking them forward in the future.
Perhaps it's for the best if you get relegated this year and can just empty the bath of mucky water and start afresh.
Hope to see you darn't lane in a few months
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| Quote ="Bulliac"Lol. If they had any interest in seeing us succeed they have a strange way of showing it.
That they would consider cutting off their nose to spite their face doesn't surprise me in the least though - it's pretty much par for an entity which shows the same signs of being in control of itself as a cockerel running around a farmyard with its head chopped off.'"
That is very difficult to argue with in its entirity but my point still stands.
The infuriating sadness in all this is that madness seems to lie in all directions, and this comes as a result of the RFL interfering right at the begining of Odsal-gate and the first administration.
I would be delighted to see Bradford go down that is the gods honest truth, because it might mean Wakey dont (short sighted and short termist i admit) but for gods sake it should be done on a muddy pitch with the better team staying up on a copletely level playing field.
Supporters of both clubs may consider that not to be the case for differing reasons.
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| Indeed mate, on that we agree.
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| Quote ="imwakefieldtillidie"In reality, I only see it as a four point deduction because Robert Hicks gifted you two of them back last Thursday night.'"
That really made me laugh,thanks for brightening up a dull morning.
I'm presuming you are joking
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| So who, within the bulls over the last decade is to blame?
I think caisley for one. He started off a chain reaction the moment he signed harris.
Then I think Mcnamara, he signed poor players and declined bradfords on field performance whilst spending the full cap, which contributed to reduced revenue.
Then i think subsequent owners, with money leaking and revenue dropping have failed to reduce costs accordingly until it's been too late.
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| Now you know how it feels to be shafted by the R.F.L
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| Quote ="FlexWheeler"So who, within the bulls over the last decade is to blame?
I think caisley for one. He started off a chain reaction the moment he signed harris.
Then I think Mcnamara, he signed poor players and declined bradfords on field performance whilst spending the full cap, which contributed to reduced revenue.
Then i think subsequent owners, with money leaking and revenue dropping have failed to reduce costs accordingly until it's been too late.'"
All of the above! Along with many other awful mistakes by the club!!
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| Caisley knew who was to blame.
The supporters; the people of Bradford.
He said so, in his final Chairman's statement, October 2004, before standing down.
I don't have the words to hand (although I do at home), but the key bit was something to the effect of "what the supporters and the people of Bradford need to understand is that, if they want to retain a top-level Sl club in Bradford, they need to turn out and support the club in ever-increasing, not decreasing numbers".
This was in response to the disappointing reduction in attendances over the 2004 season, after the triple-champions 2003 season. That was the year the financial rot really set in, when Caisley et al clearly came to realise that the business model they had - based on growing crowds - was unsustainable.
Caisley was a very worried man then, certainly regarding attendances. I saw it with my own eyes. Many people slagged him off for saying what he did then. I stated that heavily criticising the supporter base was hardly likely to lead to a positive outcome. And these were in days of c.16k crowds.
As so often with Caisley, his delivery and wording was aggressive and confrontational. But was he totally wrong? Regardless of the reasons behind the crowds falling?
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| I`m beginning to realise that Mark Moore = Michael Knighton. `Buying the club with its own money indeed`
I would like to think that Mr Lamb has some of his own Capital to inject rather than the `Glazer Like` approach from Mr Moore & his chums.
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| Quote ="Adeybull"Caisley knew who was to blame.
The supporters; the people of Bradford.
He said so, in his final Chairman's statement, October 2004, before standing down.
I don't have the words to hand (although I do at home), but the key bit was something to the effect of "what the supporters and the people of Bradford need to understand is that, if they want to retain a top-level Sl club in Bradford, they need to turn out and support the club in ever-increasing, not decreasing numbers".
This was in response to the disappointing reduction in attendances over the 2004 season, after the triple-champions 2003 season. That was the year the financial rot really set in, when Caisley et al clearly came to realise that the business model they had - based on growing crowds - was unsustainable.
Caisley was a very worried man then, certainly regarding attendances. I saw it with my own eyes. Many people slagged him off for saying what he did then. I stated that heavily criticising the supporter base was hardly likely to lead to a positive outcome. And these were in days of c.16k crowds.
As so often with Caisley, his delivery and wording was aggressive and confrontational. But was he totally wrong? Regardless of the reasons behind the crowds falling?'"
He wasn’t totally wrong but as with all of this it’s not totally black and white.
As you say it was his flawed business model that relied on income from ever growing crowds yet he had no strategy of how he was going to achieve that. The club in 2004 was relying on people just turning up and repeating the same marketing of 8 years previously. There was no plan to deal with natural wastage when the casual fan finds something else to do, even if the club is as successful as it gets. He assumed that success on field equals ever increasing crowds ad infinitum. I think Hudders are making the same assumption but fact is all clubs have a peak fan base they can expect and we’d reached ours like they’re now reaching theirs.
What we needed was some innovative marketing to keep attracting new supporters coupled with a new approach to getting sponsors and potential new directors on board. However I think Caisley frightened people away to a degree but then I no evidence to back that up. Slagging off the fans was never going to do any good. Once crowds dropped and costs exceeded income it was only going to end badly.
His massive humungous balls up in signing Harris was no small factor in the decline of the club either. As was the fatal fall out with Hood.
In some ways we’ve done well to blunder along as long as we have. Say if Moran or Davy were to walk in front of a bus tomorrow their clubs could be up the creek a lot quicker than us.
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| Quote ="Early Bath"I would like to think that Mr Lamb has some of his own Capital to inject rather than the `Glazer Like` approach from Mr Moore & his chums.'"
I think we'd all like to think that but whether it wil happen is another matter.
To say I'm sceptical is an understatement.
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| So who exactly employs your players now & staff now? The club quoted this at the end of january..
[iAll players, employees and assets have been transferred to the new company, who will continue to function as Bradford Bulls under new directors Andrew Calvert, Mark Moore and Ian Watt, alongside chief executive Robbie Hunter-Paul.[/i
So if that company now no longer really exists on anything but a piece of paper who do the players & staff work for? Can they just all transfer back to OK Bulls even though that company is in administration? Is that possible or even legal, surely that goes against what an administrator should do doesn't it? Wasn't it said that the superleague license had transferred to the newco for 28, which ends friday. So can that transfer back to OK Bulls, a company run by an administrator or does it stay with a company that has nobody running it. Or does nobody now hold the license? How does this effect the players insurance? If the RFL are paying the wages on friday where does this money come from? Did the new company get the 300K sky advance that was due a couple of weeks back or was it with-held until the deal was complete? Is Omar Kahn now liable for anything or is he out of the picture?
The press releases yesterday seem to have created move questions that answers and as an outsider looking in nothing seems to make any sense. I hope for all your sakes something can be sorted out quickly, I know what it feels like when it looks like it's game over and it really is heart wrenching.
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| As I understand it the club is in admin and is run by the administrator. He's paying all the bills. OK Bulls is dead and buried as is 2014 Bulls.
A new owner is being sought but this won't last forever. If that doesn't work out the whole thing will be liquidated and monies raised use to pay off creditors, including the administrator.
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| Yes, Caisley was wrong about the crowds. He was fundamentally wrong in the belief that, in the 21st century, anyone would turn up at a ground and pay good money out of some sense of duty, or a jolly good ticking off from the Chairman.
It was up to him to do whatever he needed to do ATTRACT more people. They will only come if they CHOOSE to. Your job as a club is to make that choice attractive enough that they excercise it.
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| I will stick my neck out now and say Chris Caisley will be back involved with the Bulls sometime soon
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| Quote ="Wakey Til I Die"So who exactly employs your players now & staff now?
...
The press releases yesterday seem to have created move questions that answers and as an outsider looking in nothing seems to make any sense. I hope for all your sakes something can be sorted out quickly, I know what it feels like when it looks like it's game over and it really is heart wrenching.'"
Appreciate the sentiment, thanks, and don't worry, as an insider looking out nothing makes sense either!
On your initial question, Id [iguess [/ithey are ultimately currently owned by the Administrator (under whatever failed holding company guise was in possesion when the music stopped yesterday) as the BB2014 offer is withdrawn....but that company TUPE'd the staff....before the sale was complete???....so should that have happened?
And if we never left Admin, how can we have had the points already deducted? I thought it was a deduction based on going into Admin but mitigated (or not) depending how we exit Admin?
unreal.
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| Quote ="Adeybull":3oem9pukCaisley knew who was to blame.
The supporters; the people of Bradford.
He said so, in his final Chairman's statement, October 2004, before standing down.
I don't have the words to hand (although I do at home), but the key bit was something to the effect of "what the supporters and the people of Bradford need to understand is that, if they want to retain a top-level Sl club in Bradford, they need to turn out and support the club in ever-increasing, not decreasing numbers".
This was in response to the disappointing reduction in attendances over the 2004 season, after the triple-champions 2003 season. That was the year the financial rot really set in, when Caisley et al clearly came to realise that the business model they had - based on growing crowds - was unsustainable.
Caisley was a very worried man then, certainly regarding attendances. I saw it with my own eyes. Many people slagged him off for saying what he did then. I stated that heavily criticising the supporter base was hardly likely to lead to a positive outcome. And these were in days of c.16k crowds.
As so often with Caisley, his delivery and wording was aggressive and confrontational. But was he totally wrong? Regardless of the reasons behind the crowds falling?'" :3oem9puk
Caisley was spot on, to be fair. What he got wrong was publicly berating the supporters, though I guess he was really getting at those who didn't support..
You can't have a [i:3oem9pukconstantly[/i had the same problem as their crowds eventually began to drop.
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| Quote ="Bullseye"As I understand it the club is in admin and is run by the administrator. He's paying all the bills. OK Bulls is dead and buried as is 2014 Bulls.
A new owner is being sought but this won't last forever. If that doesn't work out the whole thing will be liquidated and monies raised use to pay off creditors, including the administrator.'"
It is ok bulls that is in administration isn't it? 2014 bulls only really existed for a month whilst it had a temporary license? I take it the players and staff have all transfered back to ok bulls along with the superleague license? Or is this not possible and do they remain as 2014 bulls employees?
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| Quote ="Duckman"Appreciate the sentiment, thanks, and don't worry, as an insider looking out nothing makes sense either!
On your initial question, Id [iguess [/ithey are ultimately currently owned by the Administrator (under whatever failed holding company guise was in possesion when the music stopped yesterday) as the BB2014 offer is withdrawn....but that company TUPE'd the staff....before the sale was complete???....so should that have happened?
And if we never left Admin, how can we have had the points already deducted? I thought it was a deduction based on going into Admin but mitigated (or not) depending how we exit Admin?
unreal.'"
I see, i think! Certainly is messy! I wish you all the best.
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| Quote ="Wakey Til I Die"It is ok bulls that is in administration isn't it? 2014 bulls only really existed for a month whilst it had a temporary license? I take it the players and staff have all transfered back to ok bulls along with the superleague license? Or is this not possible and do they remain as 2014 bulls employees?'"
Depends whether Bulls 2014 is sold on as a going concern or a new company is formed. If the old company is bought then there would be no need to transfer.
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| Quote ="Bullseye"As I understand it the club is in admin and is run by the administrator. He's paying all the bills. OK Bulls is dead and buried as is 2014 Bulls.
A new owner is being sought but this won't last forever. If that doesn't work out the whole thing will be liquidated and monies raised use to pay off creditors, including the administrator.'"
I asked the question as soon as the "provisional" acceptance of the bid was publicised, how the hell you can an employee be "provisionally" TUPE's? I don't know the answer to that but suspect the answer lies in whatever documentation was given to the employees at the time of the TUPE.
It would on the face of it seem odd to me if I can be TUPED across and work for and be paid by my new employer, only to be told a few weeks later that after all I am still an employee of my old, bust employer.
If I was called Carvell, and legal action had been initiated by BB2014 as a result of my moving to Hull, I would be intrigued to know on what that was based if in fact my employment with BB2014 had never been confirmed, and was now being eschewed? The end result would be that Carvell never was an employee of BB2014 but from what we know, (which isn't all that much) that doesn't sound like a sensible conclusion.
If then the players (to take one category of employee) are all now employees of BB2014 - what is it going to do with them? If they are not employees of BB2014 then why and how does it hold their registrations?
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| Quote ="Bulliac"Depends whether Bulls 2014 is sold on as a going concern or a new company is formed. If the old company is bought then there would be no need to transfer.'"
Who said BB2014 is for sale?
It's an interesting point (or would be, if we weren't all so royally and abysmally fekked off): is there a competition here?
Would a buyer be more interested in acquiring BB 2014 - which has all the staff including players, and presumably not much debt - as a going concern?
Or if they buy the business of OKB from the administrator - how the hell does that include the player contracts when we all know (we thought) that they were all TUPE'd out of OKB?
If Lamb does a deal to buy BB2014 from MM then as BB2014 he presumably holds the player registrations?
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| So OK Bulls went in to admin and staff transferred to Bulls 2014. The 6 points is punishment for OK Bulls entering admin. What happens now if Lamb wants to create his own company? Does Bulls 2014 go in to admin and we get an additional 6 points deducted?!
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