The things is Adey, when Wakey are going well they are held up as a benchmark. When they are losing nine of their last ten games of the season, with sixty put on them on Wire and a kick short of fifty at home to Cas they're forgotten about and another, more in-form side is used as the stick to beat McNamara with.

I sympathise a lot with your calls for tranparency, but the club have gone a long way to make it clear what's going on. Many just don't want to know, writing it off as 'excuses'.

As for effort being all the fans want to see... I don't think that's the case either, going by the first two games of the year where effort was generally agreed not to be lacking. Some still accused the players of not trying, while other conceded that they had but made it clear that still wasn't good enough.

This place is a bit of an echo chamber and not half as important as we'd like to think it is. I still think it takes big stuff to shift wider perceptions - summer rugby, getting to Wembley and winning trophies for the first time in yonks were it in 1996. Now don't think even winning trophies wll really cut it. There was little bump from either of our 2003 or 2005 wins.

The good news is we do have big stuff that looks achievable - a pack full of Burgesses would help put the club back on the national map; a team full of young British lads would be something the whole game would have to applaud; the OSV would be such a shock to every Bradfordian, most of whom seem unaware that this scheme actually looks like it has a chance, that they might even crack a smile. Might. Just maybe.

Andrew, for the avoidance of doubt - I am going on about perceptions more than realities.

Like as you rightly point out re Wakefield - John Kear has a track record of getting teams to overperform short-term, but long-term his record is far more suspect. Maybe I was naive in using them to demonstrate a point, but I deliberately emphasised "APPEARS" to try and get across that its perceptions that are pretty crucial right now.

The big problem now is that - for valid reasons or otherwise is not the real issue - we have a support base which appears in general to be pretty negative and demoralised. You well know a lot of that negativity is doing my head in (and ME can probably attest to that a wee bit too...

) but we have to recognise that its there and will continue to be there until something happens to break the cycle of negativity.

As you point out, the received wisdom of how to do that is to sack the coach. Then it will all be alright again.

You and I and some others believe that would be madness in the extreme right now - and I'm sure we don't believe for one minute the club are contemplating that whatever clamour there is from the "fans".

What I was doing was trying to suggest more appropriate means of breaking the cycle - by which we really mean changing the fans' perceptions. At the moment its like a mass meeting of the 1970s - hands of the vocal and active members go up at the front, and the masses behind follow. If more of those vocal and active members at the front have their perceptions changed, it will have a huge leverage effect IMO - NOT (just) on here, but at the ground and in the pubs and in the workplace and everywhere else where it really matters.

Rightly or wrongly, the only people who can shift the current perceptions are up at Odsal.

There is no reasonto sack the coach.

We can't afford to sack the coach.

We don't need to sack the coach. We have a rare thing, as a result of the franchise process: we may have struck lucky in this respect. As it happens, the current early phase of our re-building co-incides with no relegation till 2012. Happy days, because it doesn't matter, even if we finished rock bottom, we would not go down. So unless Hood & Co become convinced they have the wrong man, the calls for Mac's head are never going to be answered. Why? Well, the hotheads just need to realise that a club is only going to sack the coach for no reason other than a change of scenery if it is in danger of serious consequences such as relegation. If that doesn't apply then why would they waste all that money?

There is no better coach available and affordable anyway.

Don't get me wrong - we can't afford performances like Wigan. It is stating the obvious that if that effort suddenly became the norm, then indeed the coach [iwould[/i go in short order. But thankfully we extremely rarely get such poor efforts. A handsome win soon would be sweet, but it wouldn't make us the champions, any more than that freak horror show makes us the dunces. The rality is we are and will by the end of the year still be in an early re-building phase, and we just have to get used to the idea.

All of which is fair enough and very well meaning. But the underlying assumption is that those in charge believe that McNamara is the best long term option and also that they are right

Where though is the line beyond which McNamara is no longer good enough? In the argument on this thread what would need to happen for there to be a regime change? What criteria for success as coach of Bradford Bulls should we be applying in the short, medium and long term?

There is a very good point made on a thread elsewhere about the Bradford legacy and coaches throughout SL brought up in the Bradford team of 10 years ago, that by implication they have not had the learning to succeed in the more modern game, that Steve McNamara (and others) are not good enough. And it is that that is my primary concern. I don't think that McNamara is the right man for the medium or long term. Simple. Short term is a point for discussion I suppose.

Apologies that this is a pretty prosaic post in the context of this thread and also that it doesn't offer a solution, but I do think that it is at the heart of the issue.

Had we won our first two games (which could quite easily of happened) would it still be this bad?

Yes, the Wigan game was a disaster, but it wasn't the first big defeat and it won't be the last we'll ever see.

Is Macca the right man - probably not, but as other posters have put, who else is there? The franchise system allows us to try and build a team - granted Macca doesn't seem to be doing a great job at the minute and has had a couple of seasons to do this.

But,

We have to admit that our time as challengers for trophies has gone, we're on the downer from the most successful period in the clubs history.

The sooner most fans realise that the salary cap is starting to work and that our club is not the standard bearer for the league the better.

We need the OSV to come off for investment in the club (and city) and a few more years for the kids to come through and be established in the first team. We all know this is an area the club has focused on but won't bear fruit immediately.

I'm afraid it's gong to be a long haul - the quicker you accept it - the better.

So the underlying thoughts in this thread are that:
1) accept that we are rebuilding.

Questions - Are we? What evidence is there for that? What have the club said? Are we blooding new youngsters this season then? Were we not rebuilding last season?

2) accept that we have no divine right to win every game.

I accept that. But we should still be competing in every game shouldn't we?

3) we might finish bottom, but that's ok this season as there is no relegation.

Is it really ok? We, as fans, would be happy with that would we? I'm not sure I would. Is that really all we can aim for this year?

4) accept that Macnamara has a master plan to get us through this and knows where we are going

Ok, it would be nice to know what it was though, and where we are going and when we are likely to get there.

5) accept there is noone else available as coach and no more players coming in.

No, sorry I don't accept that. We have not spent up to the salary cap, that has been widely mentioned, we missed out on Bird, so we have money. What are we going to do with it? Who are we signing?

I think the club should perhaps speak out a bit and let the fans know whats going on.

I understand the frustrations of many on here, but it is still too early to be thinking about sacking the coach.

It will be critical how the team responds in the next few games. Anymore like the Wigan game and I think McNamara could be out, but if the team can show marked improvement or even get into winning ways then he should be OK.

As I've said before, it is silly to sack coaches during the season unless things have hit rock bottom and show no sign of getting better. If McNamara was going to go he should have been sacked at the end of last season; as he wasn't he should see out his contract until the end of this season unless the Wigan result wasn't just a flash in the pan.

Its come to something when it takes a Leeds fan to talk utter and complete sense on this forum!

Regarding a god time to sack a coach:

The coach needs to go before any decisions are made regarding the following season. If they are thinking of letting him go, he should not be involved in any potential contract negotiations for playing or coaching staff.
This gives the incoming person a much freer hand in assembling his own side.

In my opinion, we should use the money we were going to spend on Bird to pay off McNamara, St Hillaire, Richards, and Clawson. If we need to pay them off that is!

Keep Medley in a caretaker/transition role, and let Morrison and Menzies do some coaching in the very short term.

We should do nothing until we have a signed contract with the next coach, as the whole coaching team, not just Mcnamara needs changing.

As I've said on a few other threads it's no good firing the coach unless the alternative is a proven candidate who could do better. As I see it there aren't too many of those around, if any.

As many have said on this thread the only way the club's hand could be forced on this is if the shocking performance at Wigan became the norm. If that happened there's no option but to sack McNamara as performances like that jeopardise the whole future of the club.

It'd be a gamble to get rid but if crowds start plummeting to 7 or 8k due to poor performances they have no option but to take the gamble.

It does say something about our decline that we are now using Hull KR and Wakefield as our benchmarks rather than Leeds and St Helens.

Clearly it is too early in the season to fire the coach, although repeats of the lack of intensity shown in the Wigan performance would be a major concern. Performances in the next few matches do need to demonstrate that the coach has the support of the players.

IF there is to be a change of coach, leaving the decision until the end of the season would be a mistake. Players contracts for next year would largely be sorted by then, leaving a new coach dependent on the current coach's signings (an area in which he hasnt excelled). Recruitment would also be difficult if prospective players players were unsure who would be in charge next year. A decision would really have to be taken by mid summer.

At the start of the season most Bulls fans that I know had limited their expectations for this season to clear evidence of progress (something which does seem apparent at Hull KR despite the variability of their performances). We should know by July whether we are progressing or going backwards.

Given that I neither started, nor contributed to a recent thread on this matter, this is a pretty unfair comment.

I accept that he is a name that could be in the frame but attributing me with this is not exactly correct.

On Justin Morgan, the difference there is that he has brought a club up from a lower division, made some quality signings that Bradford should have been in the running for (e.g. Webster, Fox, possibly even Walker, Vella, Newton etc), and also managed to perform occasionally against the bigger clubs, which Bradford seem incapable of doing since 2007. Against this backdrop the occasional big losses can often be overlooked by the fans - again their expectations weren't high in the past but that won't be the case for ever.

The problem with McNamara is that things seem to be getting gradually worse every year, despite his efforts to reverse things; other coaches at 'lesser' clubs (Morgan, Matterson, Kear etc) at least give the impression that improvements are being made from previous seasons. If this downward spiral continues the club have to ask if McNamara is the right person given the resources avaiulable to take Bradford forward - but he at least needs time to show that his 2009 team can deliver. Look at Huddersfield in 2007 - started with many consecutive wins and then went on to make the play-offs.

As I've said on another thread there is a lot of talk about the re-building process but as far as the 1st team is concerned it is still in decline when ones plots results and performances since 2005. Fans won't wear the "re-building" line forever if the first team continues to decline and at some stage will need to see evidence of it bearing fruit.

Most of us aren't asking for the earth. We just want to see positive progress and signs of recovery in the next few years.

Yes we do. Stock should be taken at the end of this season, and see whether and how far we have progressed, and what we have coming through. With the obvious caveat that performances like vs. Wigan are simply unacceptable, by any team at any time, and cannot be repeated.

But some fans [iare[/i asking the earth. They want us to be either winning everything, or at least strongly challenging to win everything now, and all the time, permanently, "because we should be beating teams like these".

I think we possibly need to take stock in July and at the end of the season. In July because we need to be sure that the Wigan debacle was just an abberation. Like you I agree we need that caveat if drastic measures are needed because of the points Cibaman raises below:

Well firstly what a refreshing change this thread is.

These are the sort of threads that get the ideas flowing and there has been some really good, sensible and constructive comment made so far (for both sides of the argument).

I, like the majority of you on here, am a lifelong Bulls (/Northern) fan. The club has been in my family for more than a couple of generations and it has become synonymous with how we live our lives. I'll continue to watch them whether we're the top of the SL, bottom of SL or in the NL's. I get the feeling a big percentage of the core 10k supporters probably feel the same.

We saw Wigan’s poor 2 seasons actually galvanise the supporters and club and (I maybe wrong) increase average attendances; I'm sure someone can confirm that.

The key points for me are:
1. OSV
2. Youth development
3. Transparency with the fans
4. Commitment on the field short term (regardless of result)

Granted some of those are longer term, but let's hear about them.....PLEASE!

I don't think we have the ability to win SL, but a huge tilt at the cup should be a priority. We've seen that a lesser club can go on and win the cup with some unity, commitment and desire.

Some of the Negative Tendency originally said give it ten games (for about two nanoseconds until they backslided anyway...

)

The consensus of the Negative Tendency now is give it about one nanosecond, cos they have already decided.

The ever-sensible Cibaman says give it to July.

The 'Vark says give it to the end of the season, for equally sensible reasons, but action might be needed earlier if the Wigan debacle proves not to be a one off.

Bullseye is backing both sensible options.

Me? If the club IS contemplating any additions to or changes in the coaching staff - or if in the next few weeks it determines that it needs to - then by early summer I suggest we'd need to be making plans so anyone coming in would have time to start making THEIR plans for the 2010 team and campaign. This would be of particular importance this year given the number of players we have OOC at the end of the season. As Cibaman points out, if we left it till the end of the season, the decisions regarding signing/releasing OOC players will already have been made, and the opportunities for signings for 2010 will have reduced very significantly.

Cibaman's approach it is for me - although if anything I suggest July may be a bit late?

My emphasis re point 4. But yes, spot on IMO.

I'll add a fifth, no-brainer

5. Continuing efforts to secure an external financial backer

I'm sure the club is continually looking to resolve that fifth point!

Indeed.

Oi! You might at least have given me the by-line...!



Sorry...back to the thread now...

Over the last 16 years I have watched Bradford far more than any other club, usually as an impartial observer. I've been to most cup finals/GFs they've been in & fervently got behind them. I met MacN afew times while he was playing & he stood out from your average player. I say these things to try & show I am contributing fairly (despite my obsession with your lack of a scrum half, or the one currently in possession).
A few points from the above posts;
What happened on saturday was different to anything I have witnessed in my time watching. There was lack of/no heart or spirit. This indicates something drastically wrong in my book, usually the coach losing the dressing room. You need a performance this weekend to match the one against Leeds last season when you gave everything with a severely weakened team, to show me I'm wrong. I think possibly part of the problem is the p/ss poor support team MacN has at his disposal (but he chose 'em). I would MacN 2 more games like that, unless effort is shown he should be out.
Bulls are unlucky. Rubbish. 95% of SL/NL teams would swap with you. Unlucky is Wakefield with 10 players out, teams surviving on crowds of a few hundred having their stand burned down, Wire having Reardon, Johnson, Bridge etc almost permanently injured.
Bulls are rebuilding. It's easy to say but this should be an ongoing process, but it should. Since HP left your backs have struggled. How long do you want? A part from Deacon every one of your backs has been signed.
Bulls don't have a sugar daddy. Most clubs don't. get over it.
There are no proven coaches available. None in this country, possibly. No-one on here really knows, there would be plenty of unproven overseas candidates with top pedigrees as players &/or assistants desperate for a chance though.

IMO
If the players still respect Steve McNamara
If the players don't have some other reason to be against the club (rumours anyone?)
If the OSV is a realistic possibility
If the players can haul themselves out of the pit of despair despite the booing of a lot of the Bradford section on Saturday
If the next generation of first team players are really going to deliver on their potential
If the club can stay afloat financially despite the obviously shaky state of some sponsors and reduced crowds
and If at least some of us can keep going to games and cheering the lads on rather than sitting at home and firing the coach every week...

...Then
I don't think we really have anything to worry about.
I can't answer all these questions and neither can anyone who posts on here.
Saturday was an awful awful game, it's not the first time we've played like that and I'm sure it won't be the last. Can we improve 100% this weekend? I sure hope so.

One thing is certain though, clubs who sack the coaching team three games into the season seldom benefit.

You're right but this was neglected rather between 03 and 07. Young player development was neglected and proven home gown products allowed to leave when they could've been persuaded to stay e.g Peacock.



HP left in 2001 you know, after that we won 2 GFs, 1 CC and 3 WCCs without him. While he was gone Hape and Vainikolo formed one of the best centre, wing partnerships seen in SL with Les topping the try scoring charts. If that's struggling then I'd like to see what success was.

Perhaps it's fairer to say that since Hape, Vainikolo, Pryce and Withers left and weren't replaced with players of similar quality the backs have struggled.



I can think of six SL clubs that do. Most successful clubs do have wealthy backers. If we didn't have the financial millstone of Odsal it'd be easier to get over it but the club have that as a handicap too.

Apart from those, what have you won? Exactly. =whiteWas it really 2001? oops.