If you and I can see it then surely our coaching staff can. Surely he has told them and if he has and they still do it then he needs to take action with those plsyers. He's the coach at the end of the day.

I've kept quiet on KC's tenure so far, as I think it takes the best part of a season before you can be confident in judging which things you are seeing from the team are systematic and which are blips or quirks caused by circumstances such as injuries. I'm not going to start jumping on KC's back now, but I am starting to have genuine concerns at shortcomings which seem to be a direct result of the extremely conservative approach to the game we are now taking (I was away for the semi final, so apologies if I'm repeating what others have already said).

Firstly, kicking on tackle 3. I don't have a problem with this if it is done right (it worked a treat for Leeds and Kevin Sinfield in some of those rainy grand finals against us). But to be done right there needs to be an element of on-field thinking about it: if the side isn't gaining ground and the half back gets the ball at first receiver on tackle 3 and notices that there's clear space to kick into and turn the full-back, then fine - kick it. But with us at the moment it's clearly premeditated. When we start a set in our own 30 we already know (and so do our opponents) that we're going to kick on the 3rd/4th. That means that we're not responding to what's in front of us - we're just mindlessly punting it when it gets to the allotted tackle. Thus we see 3rd/4th tackle kicks going straight to the full back (unforgivable - if you sacrifice tackles for a kick it simply has to turn the full back) and even kicks on tackle 3 when we're in the opposition half, FFS.

To make matters worse, 50% of the time we put in one of these early kicks for territory we give away a penalty straight away and the whole exercise becomes completely pointless.

As people have noted, we continually bring the ball back to the middle. We have a big pack, so I can understand the temptation to do this, but if anything our one-dimensional approach is undermining what should be a weekly advantage in the middle of the pitch. Our opposition knows that the ball is going back to the middle most of the time, so it's easy for them to compress their line in anticipation of this.

One advantage of having tall, strong, heavy forwards is that it's difficult for the opposition to wrap up the ball and there are plenty of opportunities for offloads. You only have to watch Leeds to see how damaging this can be. But you can see from the body language of our forwards that offloads are basically the last thing on their mind. They don't look for them at all (unless the game is getting away from us). Again, the knowledge that we won't offload makes it easy for the opposition to pile numbers into the tackle which then restricts our yardage.

I could understand this conservative, pre-programmed approach when we had no half-backs, but there's no need for it at all when we have our first choice 6, 7 and 9 on the pitch, as well as a full back who can play ball a bit. We need to see these players let off the leash and allowed to play what's in front of them. I also understand that our backs aren't up to the standard of those at Leeds, but they're not terrible either - we need to get them in the game, even if it's just to keep the opposition guessing and make a bit more space for our forwards (a bit wrong-way-round, but if it works...). And we need to start looking for offloads. Until we start doing these things we will continue to be depressingly easy to defend against.

I think so, as you know KC is quiet speaking and being dropped in the deep end as rookie coach I get the feeling he's still has a mindset of 70% coach 30% player. Its going to take another season for him to have more influence on players tactic and discipline wise.
He is as you suggested earlier, learning by his mistakes if we were mid table its obviously a concern but I think Superleague is so up and down KC can get away with building up his learning curve, the problem is Saints fans want it "NOW", good coach and good players at the same time is a difficult one these days.
At the moment my concern is that KC has no advisory and he might drop into a blinkered state, perhaps Millward can open up some technical options.

I completly agree with this 100%!

Regarding the kicking on 3rd. It does work agsinst some teams but we go out and kick on 3rd no matter who we play, kicking to leeds with a back three like they have is utter suicide.

We don't have any structure to our attack or set plays. It's just one up boring crap with the odd inside ball or short ball to Greenwood. We ain't playing what we see and that's vital part of any hooker or halfbacks game.

We have big Alex, Mose and Sav that are big and powerful and attract 3 defenders but they never look to offload.

We struggle to get out our own half. It's vitally important our back three return that ball off the kick better than they do and get us on the front foot to get out our own half. Quinlan is one of the worst kick returners ive ever seen in rugby. He's dead with the ball so he looks to pass or just go down and the momentum stops dead. Dawsons kick returns again are very poor, he's like a Backrow running it in and again we don't get on the front foot. To be fair to swifty he does return the ball well so can't knock him. Every team knows they can kick to Quinlan and Dawson and will stop any chance of us getting a roll on.

It's so important those first to carries on kick returns as 9/10 that's what gets teams on front foot to make good meters. Look at wigan they have bowen, Charnley and Burgess who return the ball very well. Leeds have Hardaker, hall and Briscoe.

This is one of our biggest problems alongside our discipline. I mentioned in a earlier thread somewhere that KC is playing a percentage game thats not working, believe it or not but we are the best team in super league for the least amount of errors.
The problem is that its at the expense of our defence, we very rarely have a game plan based on dominating the tackle to give us extra seconds, our game is a sliding defence and not committing too many players around the ruck. This gives the opposition extra yardage on each play and also opens up plenty of offloads for them, if there was a stat for conceding offloads I would bet we are one if not the worse team.
In reality this is this is "dumb play" by coach and players and should be lessons learnt now by now courtesy of Leeds beating us 3 times.

Funny you should say how quite he speaks as someone at the club jokingly said that potter talks louder than him and that's saying something.

I did not want KC last year I think you have to move away to show your worth in a side with less resources.

I really wanted us to bid for Powell.

However now KC is in charge.we are comfortably in the top 3 and made a semifinal. Probably the 2nd best team in the cc and would have beaten anyone but Leeds. And we were not far off them.

Warrington showed what a hammering by Leeds is really like.

Calling for the coach 6 months in for what in any other business would be a good set of half year results is crazy.

But we need to start looking outwards. I get the loyalty but we are looking very insular on the backroom staff. New ideas come from difference not everyone knowing the same stuff.

Even at Liverpool with their famous backroom staff it was not everyone, just a few with experience brought in from elsewhere.

I for one don't want him sacked yet. After all we are 3rd and got to the semi as you say. I didn't want KC In the first place as I suspected this due to him never ever coaching a team in the past. Id liked us to have brought a old head in as coach for two years so he's learning his trade as assistant and not learning his trade as first team coach.

I'm more worried for next year as we ain't going in the right direction with recruitment/retention.

I agree, we are looking insular, we need an advisory someone outside looking in like a Sheens, Bennet, Anderson, Millward to assess and open up the game plan structure. Its a frustrating one for saints fans having to deal with performance and game plan inconsistency.
Its like you said crazy to throw the towel in with KC, his mental toughness is being tested but he's not one for giving up and he's got 6 games to turn things around.

I'd give him 2 years. But the rest of the coaching can be moved around in the off season.

If KC wants to coach the attacking side then as a left field suggtion why not Harris on defence.

In principle I agree with you but if we do that is it not an outward indication that he needs help? If we had done that from the off then I think it would have been fine but to bring someone on now would probably be perceived as a slap in the face to KC.

It probably dependant hows its done man management wise to not undermine his authority, he's self critical anyway so knows he's got a lot to learn. Would like to see him and the coaching staff go off to OZ for a short spell off season similar to a McBanana scenario.

I thought Potter was a waste of space to be honest, caught him a few times texting on his mobile phone quite a few times during game in play.

I was pleased when we got him as he'd done good job at catalan just got coach of the year. He just didn't fit. He didn't seem at home at saints. Even his interviews he never used the word "us" it was always they etc. I just don't think he suited us and vice versa

I know LMS was missing for the Cats game (Wife Expecting) but didn't realise Turner was missing in the 17 , is he injured!!

I've gone right off Cunningham. He is dragging the club down with some of his comments and lack of responsibility for poor displays. His comments in the trade papers about the officials influencing the semi against Leeds smacked of sour grapes. He is modelling himself too much on his pal over at the Goons but just comes across as a "poor man's Shaun Wane". He needs to learn how to lose in a more gracious manner and accept that his own performance could do with some tweaking rather than his players and the officials.

I didn't see any comments after the semi I didn't think the beeb bothered to interview him.

His interview in the League Express basically slagged the officials off for the most part. No credit to Leeds, in fact no mention. Very Shaun Wane esque. Maybe he respects Wane too much and tries being too much like him regarding the psychological mind games. What Cunningham said fooled nobody, Saints won the penalty count 4-3 and got the "big" decision of the night, the Savelio try/ no try. The officials played a minimal part in the nights proceedings for me. I have always respected Saints as a club, this fella does you no favours at all. Like I say, rather than try and deflect any heat from himself by ridiculous comments, he needs to man up and be more honourable in defeat.

Yes he said something about the ref not policing the ruck and on our first two tackles there should have been penalties for us as the Leeds players were all over the Saints man bringing it forward.

My issue with him is it shows how he cannot adapt his tactics accordingly and slow Leeds down if the ref is not penalising for holding down. Just like the Leeds offload plays; if you can't beat them join them.

Like I say, very lame way of hiding why you lost the game. Leeds only benefitted from 3 penalties throughout the whole game, Cunningham sounded like a fool. Every game is different regarding ruck speed, the "10"

metres and various other interpretations. Cunningham should be instructing his team how to adapt a bit better. He should also be teaching his team how to defend, attack and raise the intensity of a game when needed. The nearest Saints have been in 3 games is 10 points against Leeds. He needs to start accepting the limitations of his players and the limitations of his coaching ability.

I'm trying to find a point on which to disagree. I can't.

KC is still very much an amateur from an experienced coach point of view, pre match he was very complimentary to Leeds, post match you will get it from a Saints perspective not a Leeds one. Also I,m pretty sure this subject thread won;t go the distance of the McDermott 123 pages version.
I would wait until he starts criticising about how another superleague club is run, then you can moan about that.

In going for a young home grown coach, the club has to accept that he will make mistakes and give him time to grow, if they have confidence that they will be the right man for the job. Everyone makes mistakes, it's just how we are, and KC is going to make mistakes too. But if he can do that and keep us in the top 2 or 3, whilst learning, then that has to be acceptable? Brian Mac did at Leeds, just look at the threads calling for his head, largely due to being tactically naive.. And he has turned out ok.

But, the one thing I don't like about KC is how he is happy to criticise his players in public, often individual players. To my mind, this is his team and he should accept the responsibility for the losses as well as the glory from the wins. He should take the pressure from the players, and deal with them in the dressing room. We all know the players aren't performing, we don't need KC to tell us that. Just get on with the coaching.

This is the key for me. I don't mind giving KC time. We are third in the table having lost where only two teams have won this season. Yes, we played dumb football against 12 men, constantly ploughing up the middle instead of throwing the ball around to tire out the stretched defence. To say the team played dumb is acceptable; to then go on to specify the half-backs is going too far. This sort of criticism should be kept in the dressing room. No need to panic just yet, however.

Kicking early can be a great tactic. Remember Burns's 40/20 earlier in the season? But the whole point is that the wingers haven't dropped back, so its easy to find the ground, it takes time for the oppo to get back and collect it and its more likely to find touch.
If the opposition are waiting for it, they've dropped back the wingers, the fullback's deep, then you should be able to identify that, use the number advantage in the line to get the ball wide or even use Stevo's move of a little chip over. As you say though, everything is prescribed in advance and carried out no matter what's in front of them.

Our halves aren't there for their pace, they're there for their brains. They're just not using them.