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| I don't understand why clubs persist in signing undersize juniors. Halfback is about the only position you can get away with being small now. It doesn't matter how nippy or quick a small kid is, the only role they are ever likely to suit is halfback.
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| Quote ="BrisbaneRhino"I don't understand why clubs persist in signing undersize juniors. Halfback is about the only position you can get away with being small now. It doesn't matter how nippy or quick a small kid is, the only role they are ever likely to suit is halfback.'"
They sign young kids on how they are at the moment but need a crystal ball to see how they will develop physically.
Some kids who are huge at scholarship time are usually the less skilled lad who just runs thru as he's big and more than often goes missing when he Comes up against players as big.
Also, these kids start getting proper training and nutrition and some can shoot up in height and size while others just don't.
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| Pete, I agree that there are no guarantees of future size. However there's a few clues, like the size of relatives, and also, most taller adolescents become taller adults - it's not a complete lottery.
A big problem for us, I think, is that clubs are lazy in talent-spotting. They rely on a high degree of self-selection (lads already choosing to play league). Given the way sport works in schools, we can be sure that most of the big athletic kids from their early teens will be playing soccer. It's for RL clubs to find a way of persuading some of these lads that they have a much more realistic chance of a pro sports career if they switch to RL.
Similarly, it's not good enough to just keep the most determined early-show kids. If coaching means anything, it should mean the ability of junior coaches to develop fringe candidates into real contenders. If they can't, then what value do those coaches add?
There are tens of thousands of big athletic lads born all across this country every year. For many of them, a pro sports career is a dream. Most will drift out of any sport in their mid-teens, while a large part of the remainder will spend their lives on park soccer pitches long after any chance of a pro-soccer career is over, but when a pro-RL career remains possible. Yet we only seem able to identify and develop a series of below-average-height, not-particularly-fast lads who are very keen, but lack the size or speed to ever rise above mediocrity.
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| Quote ="Roy Haggerty"Pete, I agree that there are no guarantees of future size. However there's a few clues, like the size of relatives, and also, most taller adolescents become taller adults - it's not a complete lottery.
A big problem for us, I think, is that clubs are lazy in talent-spotting. They rely on a high degree of self-selection (lads already choosing to play league). Given the way sport works in schools, we can be sure that most of the big athletic kids from their early teens will be playing soccer. It's for RL clubs to find a way of persuading some of these lads that they have a much more realistic chance of a pro sports career if they switch to RL.
Similarly, it's not good enough to just keep the most determined early-show kids. If coaching means anything, it should mean the ability of junior coaches to develop fringe candidates into real contenders. If they can't, then what value do those coaches add?
There are tens of thousands of big athletic lads born all across this country every year. For many of them, a pro sports career is a dream. Most will drift out of any sport in their mid-teens, while a large part of the remainder will spend their lives on park soccer pitches long after any chance of a pro-soccer career is over, but when a pro-RL career remains possible. Yet we only seem able to identify and develop a series of below-average-height, not-particularly-fast lads who are very keen, but lack the size or speed to ever rise above mediocrity.'"
Totally be fair, saints are pretty good at getting good young players but did miss out on few from brook why went Wigan .
Our youth policy is ticking Over but we only produce decent super league players wirh odd top player every now and then.
It's hard to know whst a 15 year old lad will grow like in say 4 years.
Saints have brought some big lads thru in recent years in Thompson, Richards, Savelio, Greenwood and Knowles so we got the size thing right but not the quality
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| Quote ="St pete"Totally be fair, saints are pretty good at getting good young players but did miss out on few from brook why went Wigan .
Our youth policy is ticking Over but we only produce decent super league players wirh odd top player every now and then.
It's hard to know whst a 15 year old lad will grow like in say 4 years.
Saints have brought some big lads thru in recent years in Thompson, Richards, Savelio, Greenwood and Knowles so we got the size thing right but not the quality'"
Thank you for that Professor Stanley Unwin.
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| Quote ="DVW"Thank you for that Professor Stanley Unwin.'"
I don't get the nature of your post but "I'll carry on regardless " and it seems you just spout "gobbledygook" anyway
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| Don't know what you lot are moaning about. Can you not see that there is only one direction this club is heading in. Get on board the funbus FFS.
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| This is all v interesting for me....
Speaking as someone who used to deal with statistical analysis, although the number grouping is fairly simple, and actually numerically close overall. The Stat Analysis in a Rugby sense shows there is a trend showing significant decline.
I'll try to keep it simple....here goes................
Taking the the stats in bands of 4 years, the results average for points scored are as follows ;
97 to 00 = 31.25pts scored
01 to 04 = 31.25pts
05 to 08 = 33.5 pts
09 to 12 = 30.0 pts
13 to now = 26 pts scored
The conclusion is that over the 4 bands of years 97 to 12 (16 years in total) the ability to score is fairly even at an average of 31.5pts scored, which is itself artificially boosted as you had probably your greatest ever grouping of players during those vintage years 05 to 08 period.
So if arguably your greatest ever team was in this period and itself produced a scoring average for its grand 4 years at 33.5 pts scored. Then the rugby either side of that vintage period was not all that bad with an average of approx 30.6 pts. scored.
However if we ignore the sparkling rugby of 05-08, the tell tale factor is that although on average, ave. points scored either side of this period is less at 30.6pts, it was still good enough to bring home trophies with good (but maybe not 06 vintage sparkling) attacking rugby that Saints are known for.
The vintage period you had prob comes every 40/50 years for very few teams, and now, with the salary cap may never happen again, where contests are so much in one teams favour for the majority of games played.
The rub for you guys is that, these latest statistically poor 4 years have brought with them Grand final success, which may have been papering over cracks, as according to the numbers, you are now performing in an attacking way far worse than you have for a long long time. Which is perhaps why you are no longer the entertainers of Rugby league. But you still won stuff. Only now its even worse (statistically of course)
The last 4 /5 years have also shown that it is rising to the occasion that wins the silverware, and Leeds too have shown that as Saints have, in that our 2 big competitions are effectively Knock out comps, and being good at that can hide a few under the surface ailments. Which eventually can have a big detrimental effect if medication is not provided.
Your scoring average is now is at a very low (for you guys) 26 points scored per game. Which is well behind the good days, which is itself even further behind Vintage Sculthorpe Long Cunningham Wellens et al days. So there is little wonder that the fayre on show is not good, which is meaning fan disenchantment.
Pessimistically thinking, maybe its just your turn to soon pedal the same ground Bradford Widnes Hull and HKR have had to trudge through after once having true champion teams that won lots before their long decline ?
Or Optimistically, you are, as we would all expect, about to rise from your slumber, take the evenness of the league as the new way and bring in change in one form or another which will perhaps bring you back your glory days. You should thank your Lucky Stars Saints , after all your not at Headingly with 3 wins are you. !!!!
You've still hopefully got the Grand Cup competition coming up and you usually turn up at the table when the Hors d'oeuvre are being served. Think Leeds are still looking for their ticket.
On a brighter note, statistics are just numbers and in sport sometimes they not worth the paper they're written on. On this occasion the analysis do seem to be saying something to your decision makers. But then again look at Leicester... sometimes in sport you just never know.
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| The very same stats could suggest an improvement in defences overcame period, just for arguments sake.
Having observed a few threads funny that it's predominantly wigan.n saints fans spouting that super league has list quality when Infact it could be argued that's saints and wigan that have had drop in quality of the side and others have improved
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| Quote ="Dezzies_right_hook"The very same stats could suggest an improvement in defences overcame period, just for arguments sake.'"
Given that these stats show that we have our worst defence in over twenty years, that clearly doesn't apply to us.
Quote ="Dezzies_right_hook"Having observed a few threads funny that it's predominantly wigan.n saints fans spouting that super league has list quality when Infact it could be argued that's saints and wigan that have had drop in quality of the side and others have improved'"
I'm not sure what you're getting at ... isn't that exactly what this thread is about?
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| Quote ="Dezzies_right_hook"The very same stats could suggest an improvement in defences overcame period, just for arguments sake.
Having observed a few threads funny that it's predominantly wigan.n saints fans spouting that super league has list quality when Infact it could be argued that's saints and wigan that have had drop in quality of the side and others have improved'"
Defences are shocking all across superleague with the PTB and ruck areas a mess, never seen so many missed upper body tackles, same goes for bad and dropped passes. We are probably getting 50 points scored in a game all entertaining stuff but this isn't a rise in standards as the intensity drops to lower levels.
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| Quote ="Judder Man"Defences are shocking all across superleague with the PTB and ruck areas a mess, never seen so many missed upper body tackles, same goes for bad and dropped passes. We are probably getting 50 points scored in a game all entertaining stuff but this isn't a rise in standards as the intensity drops to lower levels.'"
If defences are poorer across the board then Saints are unable to exploit it. In 16 games we've only broke into the 40 points scored bracket once (44-4 vs Wakefield).
Our top try scorers are Greenwood (9) and Dawson (7).
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| You don't need stats to see we are poor in attack and poor in defence, you just need you go and watch us.
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| Quote ="Twentyman"If defences are poorer across the board then Saints are unable to exploit it. In 16 games we've only broke into the 40 points scored bracket once (44-4 vs Wakefield).
Our top try scorers are Greenwood (9) and Dawson (7).'"
Thats because we offer a very flat attack with most times the drop off pass, our PTB is one of the messiest in the league because we don't energise to get on our front which gives Roby less options. I think we are one of the worse teams for offloads.
Our team is either scared , soft or lazy on impact in both defence and attack I think this is what puts people off this season they seem to just go through the motions which for the supporters is very boring and frustrating.
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| Quote ="Twentyman"2016 23
2015 26
2014 29
2013 25
2012 29
2011 29
2010 35
2009 27
2008 35
2007 29
2006 33
2005 37
2004 29
2003 30
2002 33
2001 33
2000 35
1999 34
1998 29
1997 27
1996 43'"
Slight adjustment needed.
Worst Saints side I've ever seen. I've been watching them since the Alex Murphy days.
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| I watched clapped-out old Saints has-been Soliola playing for the Raiders the other day, and he had a pretty fine game in both attack and defence, as he has most times I've watched them lately.
That sort of thing reminds me of Bayern Munich snapping up rejects like Xavi Alonso and Robben when English Premiership clubs didn't seem interested...
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| Quote ="moto748"I watched clapped-out old Saints has-been Soliola playing for the Raiders the other day, and he had a pretty fine game in both attack and defence, as he has most times I've watched them lately.
That sort of thing reminds me of Bayern Munich snapping up rejects like Xavi Alonso and Robben when English Premiership clubs didn't seem interested...'"
How I'd love him back at the club. Apart from injuries, he was brilliant for us. Vea looked like he was doing well as a replacement but he's making some shocking Turneresque tackle attempts lately.
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| Quote ="moto748"I watched clapped-out old Saints has-been Soliola playing for the Raiders the other day, and he had a pretty fine game in both attack and defence, as he has most times I've watched them lately.
That sort of thing reminds me of Bayern Munich snapping up rejects like Xavi Alonso and Robben when English Premiership clubs didn't seem interested...'"
What are you on about? Soliola left because he wanted to go back to Australia.
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| Quote ="SecondRowSaint"What are you on about? Soliola left because he wanted to go back to Australia.'"
He went home as his dad was poorly
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| The fact that we have failed to compete in several games this season when this was a hallmark of Cunningham's first year is a concern. Our league position is problematic and yet I don't think it's beyond the team to put together a run of four or five wins.
Sad to say but very little of what has happened this year will matter a great deal if we tighten things up and press the accelerator. And a run of good form going into the playoffs will certainly stand us in good stead.
It's easy to write the team off but I've not seen anyone so far this season we can't turn over given a fair rub of the green.
Which means it's up to the players and coach now.
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| Quote ="Mugwump"I don't think it's beyond the team to put together a run of four or five wins. '"
WLWWWLLWLWLWWLWLLL
Maybe it wasn't in 2015, but no way is it happening this year.
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| Quote ="Mugwump"The fact that we have failed to compete in several games this season when this was a hallmark of Cunningham's first year is a concern. Our league position is problematic and yet I don't think it's beyond the team to put together a run of four or five wins.
'"
I reckon it would be more accurate thats its not beyond the team to put together a run of 4 or 5 losses, with Walsh out for a few weeks its going to be a big ask for Wilkin to marshall the side.
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| We will win two of our last league games
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| I've always thought that the side could turn it around, but for every step forwards we always seem to be able to take 2 back.
Only a few weeks ago we were 2 points away from top and able to actually go joint top. Then we capitulated to Huddersfield.
There was no reason we should have done so.
But of all the games I've seen this season for a portion of the game Saints have seemed to be managing well. We will defend high up the field and territory wise look well in control. Then as soon as we give away a penalty or drop the ball that tight defence just falls apart. It's as though one call is enough to scupper any confidence that they once had.
I would not say we were a good side, but at the start of the season I thought we looked like an average side that could punch above it's weight. But as the season has gone on that averageness has been found out.
I don't think it's a lack of effort by anyone, but a lack of skill and ability. If you keep winning then that lack of skill and ability will be masked by enthusiasm and energy. But once we have been found out we are now just playing like any other average side. And when those average sides loose their best players time and time again, those average sides struggle.
We've seen it from other sides in previous seasons. Hull KR or Wakey say will have a flying start to the season and pull off a few shocks, but as the season progresses and the better sides gear up towards the end of the season and the injuries hit, the surprises become less and less and the season peaters out.
This year top 4 would be an over achievement!
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| Quote ="bewareshadows"
But of all the games I've seen this season for a portion of the game Saints have seemed to be managing well. We will defend high up the field and territory wise look well in control. Then as soon as we give away a penalty or drop the ball that tight defence just falls apart. It's as though one call is enough to scupper any confidence that they once had.
I would not say we were a good side, but at the start of the season I thought we looked like an average side that could punch above it's weight. But as the season has gone on that averageness has been found out.
I don't think it's a lack of effort by anyone, but a lack of skill and ability. If you keep winning then that lack of skill and ability will be masked by enthusiasm and energy. But once we have been found out we are now just playing like any other average side. And when those average sides loose their best players time and time again, those average sides struggle.
'"
Defensively this is probably the worst we've ever been in the super league. Lots of observations showing very bad structure and technique.
1. Slow line speed allowing the opposition to generate more force on impact.
2. Not tackling at centre of gravity to slow momentum, opposition allowed to keep generating leg speed.
3. Bad tackling technique one on one allowing offload or tackle bust.
4. Amor and Vea have pretty bad positioning on the edge of the ruck area, I think most teams are aware of this weakness.
5. Both centres/wings finding it difficult to read switch plays when opposition try to create the extra man.
6. Giving away a penalty on the 4th or 5th tackle, usually LMS or Wilkin.
Biggest problem the players are not in tune with one another and not operating as a defensive unit, we rely on a sliding defence too much and get overworked and lose energy when we should be up on play and stopping near the source of play to stop the opposition being expansive.
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