Whilst I appreciate opinions are based upon viewing, I can assure you Carvell has been our form forward for six'ish weeks. From what little I have seen of Perry, I would say he isn't even your best forward.

You should know by now the yardstick is an appearance in the Grand Final which is zero at the moment after 14 years of trying.
Think the Wire might manage to get there this year but might be a failed one if too much emphasise is put on the importance on winning the CC.

I think the yardstick is winning the GF. I have stated many times, it is no coincidence that a GF/CC double hasn't been achieved for a fair while.

As I would say Perry has been our form forward, hence the debate.

winning the GF is the yardstick. Not appearing in it.

Well Saints can cover both angles of viewpoint winning it or appearance. Obviously from some wire fans perspective winning it 4 times in the past has far less significance on winning it once some time in the future.

What the **** has that got to do with anything? Warrington are a class apart from Saints at the moment and only a fool could argue otherwise. Our only hope of beating you in the playoffs is if you freeze again.

The point [iactually[/i being made is simply that, in my opinion, our starting 10 forwards are marginally superior to yours. Not by much, but marginally. This is evidenced by the fact that we are likely to finish comfortably 3rd and at absolute bare minimum 4th despite having no halves, no gameplan besides barge x 5 + aimless kick, no kicking game and a barely adequate 3/4 line - our pack has carried us to that position by more or less exclusively one-up, one-man rugby the whole season and beaten everyone doing so except for you and the Pies. If that doesn't prove the strength of our pack as a unit then I struggle to see what would...

I wonder why you would say that?



Perhaps that amongst other bliningly obvious facts, you have neither won it nor been in it



Next you will be advising us that the pope is a christian and that bears go to the toilet in wooded areas.
Your attmept at subterfuge is poor.

First loser, 4th, 5th, 6th, 8362729th, still win nothing.

I'm sorry. Are you drunk?

Sorry, sorry, I misread it.

I didn't realise you were talking about Wire.

Apologies.

The point some are making is we have won it, 4 times indeed. Wire are yet to even feature.

Because we were a club on the brink for a sizable amount of superleague, mid table for another and only really been contenders since 2010, not because we are bottlers but because we simply were not good enough to compete with the top 4-5 teams in the league, remember you buying players like Sculthorpe and Fozzard of us, and losing quality players like Harris to Leeds.

Bottlers is a myth, the majority of games we have played in the playoffs we've always been the bookies underdogs, only one i think we went into favourite was last year.

Ateotd though, you played an extra game for the same reward, bugger all, and 5 losing finals is the same as not being in them.

I'm not saying you're not on the brink of achieving it, just it's laughable that a contingent of your fans can even question our record in the GF having never been in it. It's akin to somebody at home watching the Olympics saying coming 4th in the 100 metre sprint is rubbish.

Edit: A participant going out in the semi finals saying finishing 4th is rubbish is probably more accurate.

No, it's actually a lot more expensive than not having been in them, trust me

What a boring debate this is...

Wire fan: 'Getting beat in the GF is just first loser'

Saints fan: 'At least we got there'

Well obviously the two sets of fans are going to have differing viewpoints!!

ATEOTD I'd take contesting Grand Finals and losing than going out pathetically in the play-offs year on year. We play the regular rounds for one reason: to get to OT and have that chance to win that one off game.

you used the "form is temporary, class is permanent" angle. So it has alot to do with it. I understand your opinion a bit more that you feel your pack as a unit is better, which you're fully entitled too. My point is and I think you would agree if you were being totally honest is that not many of your forwards would get into a Wire seventeen.

Saints have some very good forwards when looking at them as individuals/on paper, that's why we roll over lesser teams so easily. The problem is our application at the moment against teams that combine game plan with an increased motivation.

I've no doubt that players in the saints squad would be perfectly capable of swapping into the wire squad and performing just as well as your guys. Your club's just in a better place at the moment on the field.

Stop being so sensible!!!

Don't you know this is a cock eyed debate about who's got the best 6 or 10 at the moment? If your 'losing' then you introduce the GF/Play Off v CC arguement and if your still looking for reassurance then you can throw in something from left field, "our stadium cladding is better than your cladding"

Don't mention the C word around here else a meltdown may start.

Absolutely what I was saying, minus my trademark baiting and sarcasm naturally



Our forwards are playing on the back foot every time in the big games due to the sorry mess our team selection, coaching, organisation and tactics are in at the moment. They have been made to look a bit second rate against Wire and Wigan each time this season because of it. But swap most of our 10 into the current Wigan and Wire setups and they'd look like worldbeaters. Put Carvell and Westwood into the current Saints setup and they'd look like one-dimensional one-up plodders.

I wonder whether Oxford Exile will be popping back to post on this thread tonight...

Ironically enough the thread title is "nice n easy..." it was - for London!

I went, it was obvious to most there that the players didn't want to get physical and risk injury, didn't seem bothered at all, to be honest very few fans gave a poop.

And we had EIGHT Regular first team players missing as well in the London side!