I actually couldn't disagree more. Clough, for me, is a steady at any level player and imo tended to perform the same everyweek no matter who we were up against - making the same yards against the big teams as he did against the bottom dwellers.
13 Paul clough's wouldn't take home many trophies, but he'll never be a push over.

I always felt Clough's been hard done to by brown, as if he took one look at him and said "too small, on you go", without taking note of his game.

Clough went ok for Widnes last night, I was surprised when he was originally shipped out from St Helens

Clough makes more ground than the likes of Laffranchi and LMS and has better tackle completion than every one of our props.

He also doesn't make errors or give penalties away.

And that's only when comparing him to our front line props, I'd also rather he played in the back row than the likes of Flanagan and Wellens who are a waste of time there.

People moan we don't have a forward other than Amor who will just roll his sleeves up and make yards with minimum fuss, whilst being good in defence and not giving up errors/penalties.

We actually do have another such player (with the addded bonus of being a cheap, St Helens lad), but he's playing at Widnes whilst we're watching the likes of LMS fairy about.

Spot on. Clough at Widnes whilst LMS is still getting a game for us is disgraceful.

As most of you know on here Clough is a player I have rated ever since I first saw him at academy level. He reminds me very much of Harrison Hansen in the way he goes about his job, does all the little things well, tackles runs hard, well
disciplined etc
They are really not little things though are they. It's part of what [ia team [/ireally needs. It's ok having some flash players who the crowd go oooh at, but you also need the grafters in there.

When Clough was substituted in the first half last night he was shattered from his workrate. he was the one who did a lot of chasing when some of his teammates had given up.

welcome back

I don't think anyone can doubt cloughs attitude towards how he plays, he will give 110% no matter what. However, he struggles to make any sort of impact due to his size and has never really kicked on from his promise as a young kid. He will never change a match or cause a change in momentum (positively or negatively) to compare him to Amor is a grave misjustice to what Amor brings to us.

It's a shame, as his attitude endears him to the fans, and is probably useful in squad rotation, but the role of safety anonymity can be filled by youngsters who have promise if bigger things, so he was always gonna lose out.

I don't fully agree here mate. I'd take Clough over Walker or Richards without hesitation and certainly over LMS.

Clough always did what was asked of him and his stats backed that up. He was continuously in our top 2 props for average gain and as others mentioned, his errors, penalties and missed tackles were all very low.

It's a shame the way Brown disregarded him.

Perhaps I phrased it wrongly, if clough is in the team, it puts more pressure on them to step out from the straight and narrow. You can only have so many player who you don't expect cause the opposition issue. I never felt clough would ever worry opposition.

Lms' stats may be worse than cloughs, but can draw the opposition eye

because they'll be laughing at how rubbish he is?

I did sense that statement would get me in hot water

hence the emphasis on can

the example of course being lms' form at the end of last year - he can play at a level to cause concern to opposition, he just isn't consistent with that. Yes lms at his worst is much worse than clough, lms at his best is much better. If lms could play at his best with the consistency of clough, you have a very good player indeed.

To be honest i dont think LMS is really rubbish, he's just not big enough to be a prop. at 13 he's a revelation, and thats where he should be used. Obviously with Amor out long term and Lafrack and Walmesley missing lots of games too we've needed him at prop

Not this old myth again. Whether he's named at prop or 13 he's expected to pay the same game. It's not as if at 13 he's playmaking and kicking, he's expected to cart the ball up.

Thanks, it's been a long time coming

I thought this thread was about Lomax not about other players. We all know that yellow G has nothing good to say about LMS and other players, but always digs at LMS. It's like your infatuated with the lad. I am not sure what games you are watching but I think he plays well, look at his stats against other saints players, remember he also missed a few games. Yes he has made mistakes but he is getting better with every game. I can't believe what I read on here sometimes, you are all supposed to be saints fans, yet day in day out players coaches back room staff are being slated. Now let's get back to the thread - Lomax being out will be devastating for him and saints, but we have depth in the squad and can come through this . We have done it in the past and can do it again. Best of luck Jonny

All players are expected to cart the ball up, but you have to be given the ball first. The coach decides how the sets are to be played, the players do what they are told.

+1

I agree, the 13 role is just a extra prop and LMS isn't good enough In a beaten pack. He's all high fives and back patting when we put a big score on but nowhere to me seen when it matters.

Didn't rate him at London, he's had half a good season in his time here.

not sure i agree, but its about perception of the 13 role. I see it as somewhere between prop and second row. Coming onto the ball a little wider and in a bit more space.

Total rubbish, the lad is in his 4th season at saints and was brought in as a fourth prop, however due to other props being injured, he has always played and done his best. As you say you don't rate him but that's your opinion. I do rate him and hope he produces good work for the rest of the season and continues with his high fives and back patting when we score , that's what we call appreciation for a player who scores. What do you want the players to do , nothing ?

ive always been a big Clough fan.

However I will say that since he suffered a serious neck injury in I think 2011, he hasn't been quite the same.
I do recall that it was touch and go whether he would have to retire at one stage, and it does make you wonder how it has affected him physically as a player.

I still think he is a useful player to have around, one with a good attitude, hard working and consistent.

With regard to LMS I think he is suffering because he isn't really a front line prop. He isn't big enough.
We should play him either at 13 or in the second row, where he would add a bit of much needed size out wide.

I happen to think our packs big achilles heel is the second row, which is too lightweight. The better teams know if you muscle up against our front row, we don't have the option of moving the ball wide and using the backrowers to make the yards on the fringes. This by the way has the added advantage of stretching and tiring a defence, as they have to muscle up against the front row, then quickly slide wide to tackle big men running out wide. Then move back infield to tackle the props again.

Wire, Leeds, Castleford and Huddersfield all have backrowers in the 105kg+ bracket, ours are in the mid 90kg. That's giving away upto two stone in old money.
According to the official stats only Wigans backrow, is lighter than Saints of the top teams, however physically on the pitch O'loughlin, Farrell and Batemen look and play heavier. I suspect Wigan are under reporting their player size. As while Farrell for example isn't the biggest of backrowers I think there is no way he is lighter than Wilkin which is what the stats seem to show.

Here we go. Blinkered and naive is back with his do-gooding ramblings.

Vea for soliola actually goes some way to addressing that problem (which I wholeheartedly agree with you on).

Hopefully with the kids coming through, and a bit more tinkering, lms can be 6/7 choice prop but played wider in the second row (that said even our wide running second rowers are being played more like battering rams at the moment (see soliola)) and Wilkin into lock will give more size and balance to the pack. Lms, Vea and manu as second row options with Wilkin at lock looks a lot bigger for our back row options then we currently have (if we lose Manu, well hopefully bring another in/ Savelio)

On the original topic, always sad to see any player out for a long time with injury. Hope he makes a full recovery.

Are we still talking about LMS?