I get the no go forward. But he stiffens up our defense. It would be great if he could do both. But I will take a lack of go forward for a bit more steel in defense.

Put it like this LMS or Laffranchi?

I disagree actually. As I posted earlier today, everything wrong is easily fixable, it just takes structure from the coaching staff.

Amor and Walmsley are good starting props, who got completely snuffed out by us barely touching the ball in the first 20, owing to the annoyingly predictable first carry knock on, and the "touched in flight even though there is no deviation of it's flight" drop out. Masoe, whilst having a poor game today has been improving, and is a good sub for walmsley. The problem comes when Amor comes off. Laffranchi is okay at holding off the opposition whilst Amor is off, hopefully we will get someone better next year. Richards has impressed me, and would be my 5th choice prop next year. Too much too soon now though.

Our biggest problem is the back row. We need to stop acting like lock and second row are the same. Declare lms and Wilkin our lock options, and no one else plays there! (We've already had this conversation) - reading redvee, people are saying Wilkin wants to play 6 now?

The rest is in the previous convo - but easily fixable.

None!

Walker, Thompson and Richards before him.


I also think it's time Greenwood got a extended run starting at second row.

Agree entirely about greenwood. Him and soliola would be my starting second rowers. Manu or Savelio as impact second rowers on the bench.

Not convinced by walker, seems like another clough, and I don't think he's the player to influence a big game. Richards and Thompson are, but too young to play week in week out. There's an argument for them to share the role, but then brown would get complaints about tinkering again - laffranchi is a better, stable option.

It's surprising how much we've missed Manu for a player who's been out of form.

Manu brings defence and also go forward so he's effectively our best all round Backrow. He's also tough and never takes a back step.

Greenwood had improved this year. He's gone stronger and given good ball will bust tackles.

Wilkin has decided he wants to be a stand off now and it shows. He's told Brown the same, and its upsetting others take from that What you Will.

I think we've missed the threat of Manu as much as we've physically missed his contribution. A big player whose capable of playing wide of the ruck, and get a role on and have opposition scrambling is something were missing right now. Savelio could be a great replacement, but I don't know if he has the fitness, and lateral footwork in defence to play wide yet.

Amor Roby Walmsley
Soliola Greenwood
Wilkin

Masoe Laffranchi Manu Wellens

Would be my revised starting line up when fully fit. Lms replacing Wilkin if he remains playing poorly (eventually one of their forms has to pick up) - Richards and Savelio being first reserves.

Really. How, do you know this for sure?

Was Hohaia injured today? Fed up to the back teeth of half d half back pairings. No wonder Walsh is knackered. He is the only one with any nous. Target him and we are done. Need to give Hohaia an extended run to form a partnership. We badly need a 2nd hooker too. Roby is being run into the ground.

He is injured. I was told the team Thursday and he was in at 6 so must have picked it up in training.

Let's be honest, we knew that stand off was going to be a problem before a ball was kicked. Walsh IMO looks to good for saints.

We are asking to much of Walsh IMO and I posted this before the season. He's our ball player, he's our general to lead us round the park, he's a field kicker, he's our goal kicker, it's to much for him.

Teams only need to take Walsh out the game and we've lost our attack and organisation and it's clear teams are targeting with spot plays.

I'm sorry but for me I'd be dropping some of those big names.

Wellens earned his shirt for me after the Cas and Leeds games. But since then???? I've not really noticed him.

Wilkin taking out yesterday when he played at 6. Can't say I've been that amazed.

LMS prop or backrower? To me in both positions he lacks something. Was great when playing for his contract, but has now reverted to previous.

For the next 4 or 5 games

Amor Roby Laffranchi
Sia Manu
Savelio

Bench: Lance (interchange hooker and by god does Roby need one)
Masoe, Walmsley, Greenwood

If someone is injured, then replace with a youth player or Flanagan in the back row.

But for me there is little room for some old names who have been part of a team on the slide for the past few years. The team has improved this year, but they have not.

Problem with that is 3 of your starting pack are injured.

I'm assuming Laffranchi, Amor and Manu

So Greenwood for Amor, Flanagan for Manu, Walker for Laffranchi, Thompson or Richards to take Greenwoods bench spot.

Playing LMS because he fills a shirt does nothing for me.

But that would be my starting line up if they were all fit.

Masoe, so disappointing, his tackling at times is poor, he takes the ball virtually at standing pace, never runs on to it, still does not look fit, and I still think Walmsley is weak, yes he has a heart, but he still does not look Super League standard.

???
are you mad?



8.67 mtrs/carry for the season,
ahead of
Peacock 6.58
Every forward at Wigan
Every forward at Wire
Every forward at Cas
Every forward at Hudds
etc, etc

yeap, really weak

Yet again you make yourself look like a clueless fool with comments like this.

To me we just have too many people being carried. ie impact props. ball playing loose forwards, props that only play second row, people with experience but not really pack players.

Chuck them out and then you have a pack to work with.

Problem is those people are the media friendly, Saints long standers.

I'm not trying to be harsh, but we can't carry all of them in the pack.

I agree with you on Mose. Mose is 20 stone, 6ft 5in, mobile and couldn't break out of a paper bag.

Walmsley on the other hand is been pretty good. He makes good meters but does have areas he needs to improve drastically if he wants to be a top level prop.

I hope Amor's injury isn't as bad as it looked otherwise we're properly screwed.

I bet we won't see him for a good few month.

Agreed, but who? And how? Salary cap age means it's not that simple to kick out players - because you can't replace them.

Amor, Roby and Soliola are immune and should be the foundations our pack rebuild is based around. Walmsley is 95% of the way there to be included in that list, after my skepticism over him being a starting prop, I think he's done really well from that position, and have no problem with him continuing in out starting front row.

I agree with the calls for greenwood to get an extended run - but he's out of contract this year (according to zerotackle). So thinking about it, reward the signing of a new contract with an extended run (it would be a good time to release some news like this if we have anything)

As for the rest, if Wilkin is making demands about where he plays (especially after spending all last year moaning about it) he should be dropped immediately. But it's what to do with him - he's out of contract in 2015 - and I assume on a decent salary. Could we get someone to take him off our hands? Hkr? Would we need to replace him? Who would play lock?

Lms is contracted until 2016 now. So, again who would take the contract off our hands? Even now, we don't need him in the prop rotation (Amor, walmsley, masoe and laffranchi as the first choice rotation with Richards as 5th choice prop) - but would we need (again) to replace him as lock?

Manu is out of contract this year. Do we offer him another? Would he want 2 years? How long to we offer and risk doing a Puletua? I thought he was pretty poor before he got injured, yet we seem to be missing him terribly since he's been out. I have no doubt Savelio has the skills and capabilities to play manus role in the coming years, but don't know if he's ready for week in week out, and if his fitness can cope with longer minutes, or if he has the lateral footwork for defending out wide yet. Manu is a wide player though, and should be left in the second row, and thus isn't the answer to the lock problem.

Jones should be left at centre. So should Percival. Turner should have to play his way back into the team. Unless we move him - is he the answer to the lock problem? His defence wouldn't be such an issue in the middle, and he has good hands for it - others have commented on his physique but he's not using it - is that a solution?

Who should our bench players be - it seems brown is intent on running Roby into the ground, and as much as I want an interchange hooker on the bench, it's not going to happen this year, and I'd be surprised if that changed next year. But, that does give us other options for how our bench is built. Masoe is an impact player (it can be debated how much impact he's having, but he's here until 2016 and can't see him going anywhere) - do we give him Feka style minutes? If so who picks up the rest of the work? Of all the players to miss a preseason he is possibly the worst choice ever, playing longer minutes [ihopefully[/i will have a positive impact sooner or later. But having masoe on the bench means walmsley HAS to start - 2 impact props on the bench just isn't an option for me. Which means laffranchi is the second prop on the bench. Then there's wellens - who ... No, I'm not going to get into this, that's a 200 page thread if I ever saw one. Then who plays on the bench as a second row replacement? One already mentioned? One of the kids? As I'm sure I've posted elsewhere, just giving the kids a chance doesn't work for me, they have to earn it, and keep first teamers out.

Flanaghan is off contract this year or next year depending on who you believe. The guy is a tackling machine, but about as threatening with the ball as an untrained labradoodle. Do you re-sign him? I think this whole thing has a much wider implication of how we want to play as a team, and the role lock has in that. When Sculthorpe wore the 13, we were spoilt as he had the strength and physical presence to play as the now "third prop lock" that some teams play, and the ball handling, kicking game and leadership for "ball handling lock" - I think ever since then, we've never fully committed to one or the other, and flick between Wilkin and lms for it (even though both are named in the second row too often)

Then add in a general lack of talent available in the second row whose ooc this year, and it becomes harder still to replace the players who are lacking with quality replacement. If we have any budget for transfers, I'd rather it went on a proper halfback.

Brown got some tough decisions to make.

I think you miss understand my meaning of chuck them out.

Turner was great last year, but he should be dropped. If his name was Jamie Foster, everyone would be saying he is lacking confidence and needs dropping for his own good.

If LMS was Walker, people would be saying send him out on loan so he can get used to playing against men at a regular level.

By chucking them out, to me it means you've dropped down the pecking order and you need to work hard to get back in. At the moment there are other players playing better, they just lack a name.

I don't buy the Wilkin demanding to play somewhere. But I do think Wilkin, Wellens, Flanaghan all offer very similar roles. They will work hard for the team, rarely beat a man, rarely run very good lines. But will tackle all day. Well you can have one of them. But not 2 or 3 in the same line up.

I think Sia has been off the boil this year, but in terms of those of the boil he is still more effective than the rest and we can't run a pack with 5 people.

So by chucking out no I would not offload them during the year, but I would not pick them and certainly avoid picking more than one of them in any 17.

To many players offer nothing with the ball. Look at Mose, he's 6ft 5in and weighs in at 20st but couldn't break thru a paper bag.

Fair play - I do certainly think we have too many players who fit the same mould, and whilst it's not too much of an issue when everyone is fully fit, when we pick up a few injuries it affects us massively, and much more than other teams. The more I think about it, the easier it seems to fix.

Percival did enough to be our left centre next week. I am still fervently in the jones for right centre camp - and I'm sure this is what (should) happen in the future. Where that leaves turner (who is hardly old himself) I'm not sure. In the short term he should be dropped yes. But in the long term, where is his position in the team? He's not ahead at centre so maybe we should look to where else he could fit in, before he hits "peak age"

I don't think soliola is off the boil per say - I think he's easier to pick up by opposition because he's the only threat we have in that area of the pitch. He kept us in the game at castleford near single handed, but was just completely nullified by Wigan knowing they didn't need to worry about our other forwards. I think vs Leeds he was one of the few who were actually tired owing to having played twice over Easter.

I agree wholly about not having 2 or 3 "tacklers" in the team (certainly not in the same position in similar roles. However despite playing that many, Roby is making just over 12.5% (or 1/8th if you prefer) of all of our tackles this year - so whose not pulling their weight defensively?