Yeah, so the photo of Jammer comforting Makinson after our GF defeat was a total fiction then?

You see, it's stuff like this which demonstrates why the fundamentals of debate should be re-introduced to schools.

1. Since when did a "prefer(ence" amount to an unbreakable law of the universe? I mean, I prefer oxtail soup to minestrone. Does this mean if I suddenly fancy a change and eat the latter it follows that I absolutely do not prefer oxtail? Of course not.

2. We have ALL seen Graham ranting at other Saints players over mistakes, positioning etc. etc. Of course it isn't personal and after the game they are all friends again. But no two players are alike. Remember, these guys are out there every day fighting not just for the team but their livelihoods as well. SL is a cut-throat business and mistakes have ended many a career. If you are a player lacking self-confidence and on a poor run of form the [ilast thing[/i you need after dropping a clanger is your skipper, veins and eyeballs bursting from his skin, two inches from your face calling you a phucking idiot. It's the type of thing that can linger in a player's memory - worse still grow to shape his personality.

3. Regardless of whether you think Graham is an entirely supportive captain it is clear Gary Wheeler (and by implication other players) isn't entirely convinced. Which means you're arguing against your own players.

Just about sums up the ignorance of some fans of untouchable Non Relegation clubs.

Had you played Leigh last night the crowd would have been about 17000.

Foster had a bad game ok but Cats deserved the win not least because their players AND ALL OF THEM never gave up.

Do not run down clubs the RFL do not care about just cos your team lost a game they should have won because of your own hairstyle.

What a horribly hypocritical post, one on hand you're just sterotyping footballers of having an attitude and on the other you're comparing one RL player acting like a footballer, whatever that means, against a 'model pro' so in that case why is this attitude exclusive of footballer if RL players have it too, maybe it's just a human nature thing?



So because he goes on Twitter he's distracted? I would imagine he doesn't spend all his spare hours on there so he probably isn't distracted at all. Maybe just needs to work on things, something the coaching staff should be doing. It's a pathetic attitude some people have on here that Foster should be dropped down to the U20's because that'll improve him no end, won't it?







I love this impression some people have that RFL don't care, of course they don't I'm sure they'd love to see all the clubs outside SL go bust, eh?

Exactly right Mugwump. Which is what makes O'Loughlin a good captain over at Wigan, despite some (albeit much fewer these days) Wigan fans being convinced the only way to captain a side is to 'bawl them out'. As a matter of fact, I don't actually know of many people who respond to being bawled at in any walk of life, let alone in a high pressure job like professional sportsman. IMO it's usually counter productive. look at Joynt or Scully for you guys. Didn't really see them giving the hair dryer tratment too often. Didn't stop the trophies coming though....

That was after the game, just watch it back and watch him under the sticks. Ranting and raving.

I dont care what you say, I've seen his temper first hand.

I didn't mean it like that and shouldn't have named teams. I was trying to make the point that if he doesn't start getting his rugby head back on he will find himself drifting off in to a lesser team or lower league.

Jamie has shown he can play rugby but IMO he's a little distracted with the good life that comes with it.

As I said, a little run in the u20s would do him good at the moment. He can still have his flash car, nice clothes, hairdressers, the hairstyle etc while staying a good player but he needs to come down to earth and start doing what he's paid a good wage to do.

Indeed and obviously you are the one to take it forward. However, I would suggest you return to the classroom yourself first in order to refamiliarise yourself with the art of reading in context. My post was a direct response to a bit of mind reading by Pete. How does Pete know what Jammer prefers? That's right; he doesn't. I simply responded with an example of when Jammer was quite the opposite to his ranting and raving self, suggesting that there is more to the man than ranting and raving. And Pete still does not know what approach Jammer prefers.

You're right. The only person who really knows is James Graham. But this [idoes not[/i mean we cannot make a rational assumption based on observable evidence (of which there is A LOT) and the testimony of the very people Graham bestowed his captaincy upon - players such as Gary Wheeler.

Like I said, I know jammer is a hot head and I've seen it first hand.

Oh, I take it wheeler don't know him either?

So if. Saints win something this year with, in my opinion one of the weakest looking teams in a while, was james graham overrated?

But back to the point of the thread, I agree with Moz Deckchair, what is he bringing? Well there is kicking but he averages 6 points a game. For a winger/ kicker that is awful. I reckon pat richards scored more than that last year and he was injured for most of it. Plus his defense is rubbish.

The missed chances tha foster has thrown away are clear in my head and he doesn't look saints quality just yet.

I'm not sure any assumption here is rational. What we see is a bloke who for whatever reason gets angry on a rugby pitch. Regardless of what anybody claims Wheeler said or didn't say, we don't know the context of the basis for Wheeler's claims. He and/or his team mates could have deserved a rollocking for all we know. Nor do we know what James Graham is like away from the rugby pitch and in the company of his colleagues when in a rugby league context or indeed any other context. This is simply speculation.

We have evidence of a ranter on the pitch. We also have evidence of a supreme athelete who sets himself high standards and rants at himself when he messes up. We also have evidence of a tender hearted bloke who comforted a distraught younger colleague who was also happy to be so comforted by him. We also have a hearsay report of a conversation that apparently took place between the reporter and Wheeler. That is all we have.

No. The team will have taken on board his absence, as they clearly need to do.

The beauty of debate is that we can all argue will dropping help, will continuing to play him help. My initial choice is always to keep playing them to see if they can shake it off. But Foster has continued to play as ade was injured in the last few months. It's not stopped this slide, specifically around feilding kicks and defensive duties.

I think there are a few discussions on these boards and we should not confuse 1 with the other.

There is the discussion about why we lost. I'll say here, Wellens, Lance, Foster are not the reason we lost. The collective team unit defence is the reason we lost.

Outside of that debate, is the debate over who should be playing, we did not have this last year as we played who was not injured.

Ade, Foster, Makinson (well my choice has been consistently Makinson and Foster for 6-8 months, but now I think it's time to try something different to bring Fosters defence back to where it was 12 - 18 months ago, I don't think he is a poor player, but he is playing below his own personal best and at his age he should be improving, not flatlining or going backwards in ability, hence why I put it down to confidence)

Lance ( where to play him, for me the attack is not the issue, the current half back pair have us totting up points for fun, experience; last night shows we need this on the field; I've only seen him for a full game at salford so was not impressed, also Wellens had not had a run out; but given the options this seams to be the best choice for FB to me)

Wellens ( did not want to dismiss from the old he's slow arguement, this was being said before he picked up a ball this season, everyone deserves a shot; I still think it's daft to suggest retirement, however given Lance would be a better FB, we then have to say well can Wellens be anywhere else? He is a Saints lad through and through and would probably do anything for the team, he is also a proud pro and wants to play, dismissing him as a back on the bench in favour of say ashe, who would sit there for 75 mins seams just as daft. He can come on and do stints giving other players breaks, whether that be at loose, acting half back, cover for centre spots if injured, moving to FB if FB or half back is injured. Saying he is limited to FB or nothing is a discredit to the man, he can play elsewhere and has done and would do again if asked to)

The reasons are not relevant. The substantial evidence of Graham bawling players out is an indisputable fact.



Wheeler DID say it. This is an indisputable fact.



In whose opinion? Graham's? Based on what evidence? His own eyes? Senses are notoriously unreliable. But let's say the player in question did make a mistake this DOES NOT mean it is a good idea to bawl him out. You don't need a Ph.D in human psychology to know it is a risky leadership device which can often be counter-productive. Do YOU respond well to your manager when he's two inches from your face screaming over a cock-up you've made which you already feel bad about?



What on earth are you talking about? James Graham extra-RL activities are completely irrelevant. Wheeler didn't say Graham is a bad bloke who plucks the eyeballs out of kittens. Quite the opposite, in fact. His comments were aimed solely at his style of [icaptaincy[/i and the criticisms he has of it. Nothing more.



Why do you keep trying to obfuscate the issue with lame appeals to emotion? NO ONE questions James Graham's standards. NO ONE questions his "tender heart" (is that a violin I'm hearing right now?). NO ONE questions his comforting of younger players. We ALL think James Graham is an outstanding player. But this DOES NOT mean criticisms cannot be levelled at his style of captaincy.

Jamie foster has not tweeted in 3 days, something is seriously wrong, i assume this time when he said "Head down and time to graft." he actually meant it, literally can't find the last time he hasn't been on for this period of time, must of really got to him, that or he saw the amount of abuse off people comparing him to Kevin Penny.

Kevin Penny,
thats possibly a little harsh.

Be interseting to see how he performs in the next few weeks

I can't believe how quickly people are to jump up and down about how bad Foster seemingly is all of a sudden. Seems to me 90% of the comments about him are about the way he looks or 'seems' as a person with virtually no evidence except for his twittering ('young man in use of twitter shock').

I've questioned whether wing is Foster's best position, but I think if he fills out a bit he may well make a good centre. From what I've seen he looks to have a good rugby brain - and when he's confident he's a damn good kicker.

Ideally Foster will go on to be a great player for Sts. I really hope that. On top of that, I have no problem with him being the face of the game with kids who otherwise may not take any interest in RL. As with Beckham does it really matter if he's not the best player in the world if kids think he is?

I'm not trolling!

Penny has(d) an infinately better attack than foster does now and similiar defensive abilities (at least he coulc catch a sitter)

But it isn't the end for foster. His kicking ability will mean he won't be forced out

But it seems a fair comparison, even the response from the fans.

Jamie did not have his best game for Saints but there is no reason to blame him to such an extent. LMS for example could and should have given away several penalties for high shots in the second half. Child completely missed them as he did with a lot of things.

I have always put dropping off late in a game down to poor conditioning but your conditioning can be tested if you lack physicality. So are we poorly conditioned and that is making us look weak or are we not physical enough and that is tiring us? Either way it is an issue with the team in general rather than one player.

Looking at our front row would be a better place to start. Against Catalan we lost Clough after Lomax game him a hospital pass and hurt his bad neck and shoulder. Clough does turn his back a lot going into the tackle which is a very poor technique and will only get him injured. Puletua disappeared to the bench in the second half so he better have been injured. He is a player that does not play to his limits. Laffranchi is playing OK but looks more like a loose forward than a prop. Which left Louie out on his feet making poor tackles around the head.

All that being said and done I do think that Makinson and Gardner are our best wingers at present but I have had that opinion since before the season started. Jamie just needs to work on the holes in his game.

Most young players have dips in their form in their 2nd or 3rd seasons. They have to adapt their game as things that they do well get picked up on by opposition defences. Some can, and then continue to improve, some can't and disappear.

It's too early to be writing off Foster for me, which some seem to be doing. I'd also be wary of opposition fans coming in and doing him down when they know his replacement will be Gardner...

Racked up 40 points today scoring 5 tries and kicking 10 goals in a 68-0 win over Huddersfield.

That's just what he needed and why I was calling for him to play in u20s for a month or two.

Total balderdash.

Penny had infinatley better attack.

Pennys best year 2008 - 11 tries from 20 appearances
Jamies first year - 7 tries from 11 appearances - then 20 tries last year.

If you compare them in there best years 2008 for penny, 2011 for Foster they play a similar number of games and Foster is better in every facet of the game.


Penny was fast, that's it....


Foster has ability and the record to prove it, was our top try scorer last year. His head seams to have gone defensively but this is something he can fix as he has the ability, where as penny never did, being fast does not mean you get tries and does not make you a good player.

Give Foster a few weeks and then bring him back for a low key game and hopefully all will be right again.

Foster is gash but hes twice the player of Penny or should i say the new Offiah as the deluded Wire lot tried to label him.