I think it's a strong squad.

Jammer is great, but he's not irreplaceable. There's nothing to suggest that sharing the workload around Puletua/LMS/Perry/Laffranchi/Clough won't be more effective than flogging Jammer to death every week. Those are 5 very high quality props. With Roby at hooker and the likes of Soliola and Wilkin in the back row, I don't share the Jammer doom and gloom. Our pack looks very good for 2012, even without Jammer.

We then have lots of pace around the backs, something we've whinged about for years. There's nothing to suggest that Lance won't offer as much, probably much more, than 2011 Leon for us. He certainly doesn't shy away from getting involved and I've seen him break down the best defences in the NRL over the years.

Eastmond of 2010 leaving is a blow. Eastmond of 2011 isn't.

All our young players are a year down the line and Meli is proving to be a very damaging centre.

Lomax (or Lance) at full back would add a dimension to our game we haven't had for years and years.

I think our 2012 squad could very well prove to be better than any of the last few years.

Really? Well I never knew!

When you're trying to blend in inexperienced young players, however, when your halves change every bloody week, it's much easier for your young and inexperienced players to pass to the left if they are right handed, especially if one of the more willing chimers into the line - Wello - plays on the left. If that is what you are talking about when you refer to tactics - making things simple for young, inexperienced halfbacks - then I agree with you. However, if you think Royce Simmons' game plan is to pass to the left regardless of the opposition then I think you're off your head. The only team I can believe he would approach with a deliberate pass to the left ploy as a game plan would be Wigan, since the Tomkins/Charnley partnership is their weak link defensively.

You might not have noticed, but playing at first grade is slightly tougher than playing for the u20s.

(Well, it is at our end of the table anyway)

Graham was impossible to replace. He is a leader, he is a talisman of our team, a one off. Laffranchi is a good player, but he's a back rower and we're still short in the front row. Thank god Puletua re-signed otherwise we'd have been in huge trouble. Let's just hope Perry gets fit, but when he's played this year he's been garbage. He has alot to live upto next year - he could well be key for us next year due to his size. LMS is a good player and so is Clough, although he's another converted back rower.



We don't really have any out an out speedsters do we? Foster isn't rapid, neither is Meli, Gardner or Shenton. Shenton has done OK, but like recruitment in other areas he hasn't been upto the standard of previous incumbents such as Lyon and Gidley and that's why our standards have dipped over the last 5 years. There's nothing to suggest Lance will offer as much either. We'll have to see on that one. He is talented, but I'm concerned he'll be our only experienced half back when he's not played there for 5 years. His career was made when he switched to full back and he's not looked back since. Playing alongside Pryce would've made his job far easier and he could've focussed on playing the more supporting role in the halves and playing a running game allowing Pryce to organise. There's alot of pressure on Hohaia next year especially with regards to the organising and kicking, which I've never really noted him for, certainly when I've watched him for NZ and NZ Warriors.



If Eastmond had signed a new deal with us, it would never have been an issue. He would've been playing at 7 for us without the media and fans circus that came with the way he conducted himself.



I agree on that. An absolute revelation and I rate him as our best back player.



But neither will play there. Hohaia will play at 7 and Lomax will probably play at 6, with Wellens at full back. That makes us weaker as Pryce is better than them as half backs. Pryce and Lomax in the halves with Hohaia at 1 is a more dangerous combination and would've been exciting and quite well balanced.



We've lost our best prop, we've lost our best strike player and we've lost one of the most talented young players in the game, despite his problems. We've replaced them with 2 back rowers (one who will play prop) and a full back (who will play in the halves). Don't get me wrong Flanagan, Laffranchi and Hohaia are good players but they're not as good as the three leaving. I reckon we're two or three quality players short certainly at prop and full back.

You think? He loves his 'don't look' chuck to Foster, even when he forgets to aim the ball to Foster and having just watched the tries show I love his 'stand and do nothing' approach to defence, leaving Foster exposed on the wing yet again.

Sure, he's pulled off some great tries and helped Foster pull off some great tries but he's still a liability, just a more contained liability.

Foster has had so many walk ins this year and that's because Meli puts it on a plate for him. We wouldn't have scored in the semi final if it hadn't been for Meli putting Foster in for two good tries. Sure, he can be lazy at times but without him we'd have been very blunt offensively.

11 tries and 14 assists from Meli - quality.

But - as with when he has played on the wing - that counts for nought if he stands around at the other end and leaves Foster on his own to try and stop hurtling wingers from doing damage over our line. And he does just that.

I've already acknowledged that Meli can be lazy at times - so was Kevin Iro, but he was still a class player!

Francis Meli this year has been our best back player, we predominatently attack down our left hand side because we know we're likely to get some joy whenever Meli gets involved with the play. I wish we had a few more attacking players like Meli in our side.

Meli has been our best attacking back this year and that shows how poor we've become.

Les be honest tho we've not got the best attacking backs. Wello, foster, shenton couldn't beat a blind man with no arms.

Cheers Sp.
That really has made me smile.

With Saints fans like you, who needs Pie Eaters eh?

You mean bring honest at backing everything saints do?

Listen saintsfan, I live and breath St Helens rlfc. I go every game possible and spend a fortune every year in the saints shop on stuff fir my lad. I'll never ever stop watching them no matter how bad they go but IMO it's worrying times and I'm not going to back things that I dont agree with.

We are doing recruitment on the cheap and hiding behind the whole youth thing.


I'd rather the club be honest and tell us what's really happening. We are broke. Simple as that.

I am not overly concerned with the departure of Pryce.

He has been an excellent player for us, however he has missed much of the last two seasons through injury and as a result we have played a lot of RL without him and done pretty well.

The loss of Pryce, Graham and Eastmond in one season is a blow, make no bones about it.

I'm sure the club were looking to build the teams long term success around Graham and Eastmond.
Luckily we have replacements coming through who can do Eastmonds job, perhaps not to the same level of X factor, but who are still very talented young players.
Graham on the other hand cannot be replaced directly so you have to adapt the squad somewhat.
Lafranchi is a top class signing on paper, and despite playing most of his RL in the second row he has been playing at prop this season. I also always thought the signings this year of Perry and LMS were actually to cover the probable departure of Graham at the end of this year.

Looking ahead many fans are now saying we will be finishing mid table next year, I think that is just typical ignorance from fans who are not aware of events happening at other clubs. You would think that everyone else is signing world beaters and only Saints are releasing players.
The reality is that Saints major rivals eg Wigan, Wire and leeds all have issues themselves to look at.

For Wigan the loss of McGuire at season end is potentially the greatest loss any club will suffer this season.
As yet we dont know who will replace him, but if it isnt a starting coach from the NRL, then i cant see Wigan hitting the same levels of intensity.
On top of his departure its also been confirmed that Coley is retiring and Hoffman is heading down under. So thats two gone from their pack with no apparent external replacements. They also lost Gleeson mid season and havent replaced him. Its also rumoured that Deacon will be hanging up his boots which leaves a shortage of cover in the halves, Lulu can play there, but that leaves McClorum at hooker which just kills Wigans ruck play. Wigan may therefore be forced to play the inexperienced and lightweight but talented Jo Mellors at Scrum half.

Warrington are facing a player apocalypse. Vast swathes of their squad are well into their 30's and looking forward to their pensions
They have lost Matt King which is a massive blow and also Louis Anderson. Its debatable if the ageing Morley 34 will get back on the field. Brett Hodgson is another with probably next year being his final one. Its not clear yet what is going to happen to their talisman Lee Briers at the end of the season. He may move on, retire or go around for one last year. The signing of Stefan Ratchford appears to me to be an attempt to cover his departure.
Its also rumoured Matty Blyth, John Clarke and Chris Riley are going to Widnes granted they are not star players, but it reduces their squad depth.
Trent Waterhouse has come in for next year and he seems like advance planning for the loss of Morley.

Leeds are another team with issues around key players reaching the veteran stage and also departing. Peacock has probably got one more year in him and is pretty much irreplaceable. Sinfield probably has a couple left but is 31 later this year.
They have also lost Burgess to the NRL, Keith Senior to the now defunct Celtic Crusaders and also Ben Cross to Widnes via Wigan. Danny Buderus is returning to the NRL. Ali Lautiti is also retiring at the end of this season.
Their signings so far announced amount to Richard Moore from Wakefield.

I agree CM, I'm not to worried about losing pryce as long as we replace him
With quality halfback.

A combination of Hohaia at 1, and Gaskell and Lomax in the halves will see us being far more dangerous next year. Hohaia may not be particularly safe under the high ball, but Wellens hasn't been since mid season either so that's no great change.

The loss of Graham is a big blow, but all it means is that we have to use the bench properly and interchange players better. I'd still like to see another prop brought in, but when Leeds are resorting to resigning Richard Moore, are there any available?

The loss of Pryce is less of a blow than it would have been 12 months ago. He's been replaced by Hohaia. Eastmond has been replaced by Gaskell, who has done a very good job for us this year given his age and experience. We won't be signing another half back, and nor should we. Why stunt the development of two very promising half backs?

Wigan are the most in danger of a massive fall next year with the loss of Maguire, his replacement is the most important signing for any club next year.

Pryce will not be the only first team player who won't renew his contract!!

You will need to factor in, the fact that senior contracts that expire at the the end of next season will not be renewed. I stress will not.

Hohoia has been signed to fulfill the role above.

Granted he has played much of his recent RL at FB, however he is not unfamiliar to playing in the halves, and has played there on a number of occasions for New Zealand, 8 times in fact. The last time in 2008.

Looking to his club career he has played 55 starting games in the halves, scoring 18 trys, out of a total of 179 appearances.

The way i see it is that when we signed Pryce, many fans were sceptical and said he wasnt a half back and that he was a winger or centre. He didnt turn out too bad did he.
Lance has far more history of playing in the halves than Pryce had ever done, prior to us signing him to play that role. Lance also is a proven world class performer at International level having won MOM awards while playing against Australia, something that could not be said about Pryce.

Lance will also bring some much needed pace into the side. Leon is not slow, but isnt someone capable of going 100metres, which Lance can do.

Finally who would you suggest Saints went out and signed that would fulfill the role you require?
There are certainly no British halves i would be throwing begging money at.
Within SL only Dureau and Chase are of sufficient quality to improve the side, and both are under contract.
Looking down under to the NRL i cant see any players that we would have a chance of signing. The real class ones will all be out of our spending reach.

The best solution is what Saints are doing, and thats nurture Gaskell, Wheeler and Lomax alongside Hohoia.

Most other SL clubs will be jealous that we have such a wealth of talent coming through in the halves.
Look at Wire for example who have signed both Myler and Ratchford from Salford due to lack of quality coming through their junior ranks.
The Leeds halves Mcguire and Burrows will both be 30 next year, Sinfield will be 32.
Wigan have been playing the 32 year old Deacon this season at scrum half while keeping their fingers crossed that young Jo Mellors starts to physically mature, however he has failed to make any impact this year at Harlequins.

Quote ="The Chair Maker" For Wigan the loss of McGuire at season end is potentially the greatest loss any club will suffer this season. As yet we dont know who will replace him, but if it isnt a starting coach from the NRL, then i cant see Wigan hitting the same levels of intensity. On top of his departure its also been confirmed that Coley is retiring and Hoffman is heading down under. So thats two gone from their pack with no apparent external replacements. They also lost Gleeson mid season and havent replaced him. Its also rumoured that Deacon will be hanging up his boots which leaves a shortage of cover in the halves, Lulu can play there, but that leaves McClorum at hooker which just kills Wigans ruck play. Wigan may therefore be forced to play the inexperienced and lightweight but talented Jo Mellors at Scrum half. '" In answer to the above part of your post. Coley will be missed, but we've played this entire year without Fielden, so his return will certainly compensate for the loss of Andy. We also have the return of O'Carrol plus the potential signing of the 6'3'' 17 stone Gil Dudson to bolster our numbers. Leaving us with next year in the frontrow; Fielden, Lima, Prescott, Mossop and outside those main four we'll have O'Carrol, Crosby, Spencer and Dudson? Hoffman will be a loss as he's been superb. However Hock will pick up the slack left behind from the Hoff's departure. Gareth's already showing a steady return to form, to once again being the best backrower in SL. And just to back that up, look at Hock's stats from the season prior to his drugs ban in comparison with Westwoods superb season last year. www.superleague.co.uk/statistics ... eason=2011 In regards to Deacon there are rumors that he'll go around for another year, but will only play sporadically as to make sure that Mellor and Powell get plenty of game time and experience without being overwhelmed. The only worry for Wigan next year IMO is the loss of Madge. He's been superb, probably the best coach to ever grace SL IMO. So who ever does fill his boots has got a tough job. But it'll be a case of continuing on with what has made us successful as opposed to changing anything radically. Just a few tweaks hear and there are all that will be required. Plus while Madge has been fantastic, the roles that Lenegan, Radlinski, Bitcon and Wane have played in our rise to success shouldn't be underestimated, and importantly they'll all be still in place at Wigan next year. If I was to make a prediction for Wigan next year in terms of what we'll see on the field. It would be the integration of a few more exciting and very talented youngsters, and a continuation of the systems and processes left in place by Madge, with a few tweaks to those here and there.

Quote ="The Chair Maker" For Wigan the loss of McGuire at season end is potentially the greatest loss any club will suffer this season. As yet we dont know who will replace him, but if it isnt a starting coach from the NRL, then i cant see Wigan hitting the same levels of intensity. On top of his departure its also been confirmed that Coley is retiring and Hoffman is heading down under. So thats two gone from their pack with no apparent external replacements. They also lost Gleeson mid season and havent replaced him. Its also rumoured that Deacon will be hanging up his boots which leaves a shortage of cover in the halves, Lulu can play there, but that leaves McClorum at hooker which just kills Wigans ruck play. Wigan may therefore be forced to play the inexperienced and lightweight but talented Jo Mellors at Scrum half. '" In answer to the above part of your post. Coley will be missed, but we've played this entire year without Fielden, so his return will certainly compensate for the loss of Andy. We also have the return of O'Carrol plus the potential signing of the 6'3'' 17 stone Gil Dudson to bolster our numbers. Leaving us with next year in the frontrow; Fielden, Lima, Prescott, Mossop and outside those main four we'll have O'Carrol, Crosby, Spencer and Dudson? Hoffman will be a loss as he's been superb. However Hock will pick up the slack left behind from the Hoff's departure. Gareth's already showing a steady return to form, to once again being the best backrower in SL. And just to back that up, look at Hock's stats from the season prior to his drugs ban in comparison with Westwoods superb season last year. www.superleague.co.uk/statistics ... eason=2011 In regards to Deacon there are rumors that he'll go around for another year, but will only play sporadically as to make sure that Mellor and Powell get plenty of game time and experience without being overwhelmed. The only worry for Wigan next year IMO is the loss of Madge. He's been superb, probably the best coach to ever grace SL IMO. So who ever does fill his boots has got a tough job. But it'll be a case of continuing on with what has made us successful as opposed to changing anything radically. Just a few tweaks hear and there are all that will be required. Plus while Madge has been fantastic, the roles that Lenegan, Radlinski, Bitcon and Wane have played in our rise to success shouldn't be underestimated, and importantly they'll all be still in place at Wigan next year. If I was to make a prediction for Wigan next year in terms of what we'll see on the field. It would be the integration of a few more exciting and very talented youngsters, and a continuation of the systems and processes left in place by Madge, with a few tweaks to those here and there.

To whom are you referring? Wilkin?

No, you are clearly wrong here CM. According to a number of oracles who contribute to these boards, Hohaia has never played in the halves during his NRL career. Never. This is a FACT, apparently. So therefore you or Hohaia or the club or someone must be lying!

I think Hohaia will do well in the halves myself. Just because he has been a bit of a utility player down under does not mean he cannot produce the goods in the middle. As you point out, Pryce was used as a bit of a utility before he came to us - in fact, I believe that we were willing to offer him the 6 spot was one reason he came to us (the other, my guess would now be, was that he thought Bradford were on a downward spiral, we were on the up and he wanted to jump ship; much as that perception is likely to be in his reasoning this time with the Dragons). But look at Lomax. He was Mr Utility last season and is supposed to be a six but while he may never develop fully at 7, he's certainly given it a good shot. No reason to believe Hohaia with all his international and club experience, and experience at both 6 and 1, won't make a better fist of it next season. I'm looking forward to seeing him play there.

What's the deal with Brotherton? Will we see him next year?
He looks big (6'3"icon_wink.gif, is no slouch and from the reports is could under kicks (offensively and defensively). Will we see him or is Ade going to resign and stand in his way for another year?

Well he is doing pretty well in the u-20's scoring 19 in 18 games that despite playing in an ordinary team this year (mainly due to half of the team playing in the first team each week!). So he appears a decent finisher and with several full length efforts he is no slouch. However according to rugby oracle Rogues in the games he has seen him in he is not yet good enough to play first team, in saying that he is presently only 19 so there is no rush.

I'd at least hope to see him get somes games preseason and in the cup next year and go from there.

Playing wing these days isn't about being Athoney Sullivanesque. It sounds like they use him under the bomb in attack, in which his height gives him a massive advantage.
He's big and reasonably fast. If he doesn't have many errors in him I don't see what's going to stop him getting first team action - we don't have masses of talent in front of him and injuries do occur. Armstrong will also probably leave this year.

No one has been good enough to point out any flaws in his game

Yeah we already know.

for me the concern next year is will the pack go well without graham? its hard to tell i`m not going to use hullkr as a barometer for next year. the other concern is the kicking game. i think this has been demonstrated when leon got fit. there is no kicking game as neither pryce or lomax offer a kicking game. i`ve no idea whether lance can kick but if not a combination of lomax and lance may offer similar kicking options to lomax and pryce. with pryce not signing there has to be room left. and looking up the thread what about a checky bid for briers

gaskel can kick but whether we will play him ahead of lomax and lance is unlikely even if it means a less balenceed kicking game.