Melodrama? Do you disagree with any of what I posted? Do you rate the current squad any higher?

That brown will have to change the club top to bottom, would seam a little over the top. Are we now binning Roby, Sia, TP, Lomax???

Are we better now than when Royce was in charge?

I would argue a new coach can change alot. I don't know if you have ever worked in an enviroment with poor leadership, but a new leader can change alot.

I think we have a coaching team that are effective against lower opposition, but when faced with Wigan do not have the experience to get the team out there ready to compete at a level close enough.

I completely agree with Saddened with regards to swapping 1-7. We have the odd individually better player but as a unit Salford's is better, as much as it pains me to say it.

1. Patten v Wellens - Patten
2. Broughton v Gardner - Broughton
3. Gleeson v Shenton - Gleeson
4. Moon v Wheeler - Moon (Although I'd probably stick Wheeler in the other centre spot)
5. Williams v Meli - Williams
6. Holdsworth v Hohaia - Holdsworth
7. Smith v Lomax - Lomax (but I'd prefer Lomax at 6 with Smith at 7)

Predictions of impending Götterdämmerung are way off the mark. Provided Gaskell and Makinson can achieve what I expect at stand-off and full back we are only two good signings away from being contenders.

After all, the pack is fundamentally sound. And that's more than half the battle won. Hell, just getting Lomax back to full confidence and playing well will give us an enormous boost.

All of the above.

Don't get me wrong, I agree we are a shadow of our former selves but sometimes you have to be realistic and, rather than just spout hyperbole in every post like a newspaper headline or radio soundbite, once in a while think about things like; why we haven't splashed the cash on 4-5 world-class players each season, or gotten Wayne Bennett as coach, or why we haven't seen the best out of every player in every game since *the miraculous season of 2006 when we won every game by 30+ points by playing entertaining and expansive rugby*

*Melodramatic

Makinson
Swift
Turner
Jones
Foster / Percival
Gaskell
Lomax

Could be a possible back line under Brown. Too inexperienced?

For me the names on the team-sheet are academic, I agree entirely with the thread title - something has to change and that something comes down to attitude.

3 times this season - THREE TIMES IN EIGHT WEEKS - Wigan have come for a war while we've come for a stroll in the park. These pampered prima-donnas, led by Mr Hot Air Mike Rush and his ridiculous assertion after the Cup game that we're "not far off" were a disgrace to the badge last night.

Everyone knows Saints are in a hole at the moment and that we lack quality. That's unavoidable now and it's not going to be corrected until next year. So when we have a lot of ball in their half and can't break them down, I can't bring myself to get annoyed - that's just the way it is until we sort out our halves and sign some strike in the threequarters. What really boils my blood is that we're incapable - too lazy, too unfit, or too soft - of matching their ferocity. They hunt in packs with 3 or 4 ripping and tearing in the tackle totally killing any forward momentum. When they carry the ball we get 1 or 2 haphazard, lazy arms allowing their wingers and at times half backs to make yards and win the floor. You have to wonder what the hell is going on when that happens.

Wigan are a solid team who work their absolute knackers off for each other and are willing to die to achieve their collective goals. If you aren't prepared to match that intensity, you have to look in the mirror and ask whether you deserve to be living the pampered lifestyle these players have. Hundreds of amateur players in this town run their blood to water and risk life and limb playing the game and end up out of pocket every week. Then go to work on Monday and graft. Most of our first team look happy just to get off the field in one piece after 80 minutes like rabbits in the headlights. They should be embarrassed of their 'efforts' last night pretty much from 1-17.

The PR Machine will go back into overdrive this week. They will come out and talk of needing to 'aim up' (daft Aussie-ism number 351) and 'make up for it' against Hull. What most of them don't seem to understand (and Wigan's players profoundly do understand) is how important these games are to the fans. You can't just 'make up for it' by winning a few games against the likes of Leeds and Hull.

Congratulations to Wigan. The only team that will stop them winning everything this year is themselves.

I don't see why. Makinson, Foster, Gaskell and Lomax have all played in Grand Finals. I wouldn't pick Swift in that list to be honest, I don't see any potential for him in the outside backs. I've never seen him play in the halves, but he's no winger.

I think that list highlights that we're going to have Gardner in the team for a few years yet, nothing in there to displace him, bar Makinson who we would all like to see at fullback.

I agree with that; our pack definitely has the ability.

If something is to change it needs to be in the backs.

And there was I thinking experience is a product of the [inumber of games played[/i. Clearly we can now dispense with this pretence, pick all our rookies for the next Grand Final and watch them turn into fully-fledged first teamers in the space of eighty minutes (or less).

Our problems at the moment come down to the fact that we've had mediocre coaching for the last 3.5 years, and a few players who think they run the place and have now left us with very much less than mediocre coaching until the end of the season. We desperately need a top coach, a few key signings and a change in attitude to be right back at the top again. We look to maybe have the first 2 in the bag and hopefully the 3rd will follow with the application of boots to backsides. Wholesale culling is unnecessary and would indeed knock us back years if it happened. Most of our current squad including most the usual hate targets are good enough to lift trophies again. The usual numpty calls for any U20 player we can get our hands on to get a shirt instead are depressing as usual. I'd be happy to write the rest of the season off and try a few youngsters in the team to see what they're made of, but entire 3/4 lines and halfback partnerships made up of kids would get smashed every game and have their careers crumble away into dust in no time. And at the end of the day we still only need to win 3 games at the end of the season to be "champions" after all - not likely with the current coaching incumbents, but stranger things have happened...

Your not far wrong sadly -

I'd take Patten over Wello , Broughton over Meli or Gardner, Moon over any of our centre's (apart from Jones as he looks like he has great potential) and Holdsworth or Matty Smith over Lance.

I remember now. You're the Crowman out of Worzel Gummidge. You must me given all the straw men you're churning out lately. Who are these "numpties" calling for "wholesale" replacement of first teamers by academy lads? I mean, several people have called for Shenton to be dropped in favour of Jones (who has looked [iat the very least[/i as capable whilst three times as enthusiastic). Then there's giving young Swift a chance - who with a double hat-trick has, you know, FORM to back him up.

Aside from that - who else? A few calls for Forster (never a bad idea to give a young prop some experience). Bringing back Foster (who already possesses plenty of experience) and of course Gaskell - who is the only fully functional half back at the club.

The truth is there are very few realistic academy options outside of those mentioned and everyone knows it. But carry on creating this fantasy world of wholesale persecution.

It's not so much the number of games played as the context. Every play off and grand final game played is worth 10 of a normal, low intensity SL game.

The likes of Foster and Makinson are established in the first team, they've been around the block enough times to be relied upon, given that the alternatives are no better and even more prone to errors. I'd go with youth in the backs next season, unless we can sign someone genuinely worth taking one of their places.

Oh do come now - read any of dozens of posts on here and bask in the impassioned calls for Wellens, Meli, Shenton, Wheeler, Gardner and Hohaia to be run out of the team on a rail immediately. How do you think these same people would propose we replace all 6 of these players exactly?

Hint: it's not with "straw men"....

You've listed six players. I could replace half of them with established players (Foster, Makinson & Gaskell). Two more I could swap for players who possess genuine form - Swift & Jones.

Hardly a torrent of wet-behind-the-ears newbies.

Let's be honest - you're making this up.

So.... Your backline for the rest of the season would, I assume, be something like:

Ashe
Makinson
Jones
Foster
Swift
Gaskell
Lomax

All you would achieve by playing that lot for the rest of the season would be:

a. Make a lot of senior players who (whether you like it or not) will feature strongly under Brown very unhappy and increase personal tensions in an already stuggling squad.
b. Kill the confidence and possibly entire future career of half a dozen young players as they were smashed into oblivion every other week.
c. Have the RLFans server melting with the number of rabid posts from Saints fans complaining over why we were losing most weeks, playing so many inexperienced kids together, giving away so many soft tries out wide as a result and doing nothing about it, and throwing away our otherwise nailed-on top 8 place.

Seriously - are you crackers? I don't recall mentioning Ashe's name in ANY thread - EVER.

I DID say we should shift Makinson to FB (a decision YEARS overdue). Bring Jones and Swift in for more games (especially the former). I have NEVER advocated Lomax at scrum half. He would be best used in tandem with Roby at hooker. Gaskell at stand-off is the biggest no-brainer this side of Billinge Lump. I would certainly experiment with Hohaia at scrum half where his fast hands might give Gaskell more space to work in.

Foster is a possibility at centre. He might have dropped a few clangers but there isn't a back at the club who can suggest he is superior given some of our recent performances.



We're not in the semi-pro days any more. These are professional players. If they can't handle demotion based on [idemonstrable lack of form[/i their value is questionable to say the least. And WHO said anything about dropping first team players for the rest of the season? I mean, sure - I do think Wellens' is long overdue replacing but I don't have any issue with recalling dropped first teamers. But such must be based on FORM - [inot reputation, promise or faith. [/i



Give over. We ran with more kids with less experience last season. Far from collapsing like an empty bedsheet they were one game away from the title.



Yeah, coz this place is just packed to the gunnels with wild-eyed Saints fans - desperate to descend on "rational" fans such as yourself like something out of 28 Days Later.

Lucky for you they can't reach up to your cross.

Does not matter where you put these players, they just need to show us they have pride when things go bad. Last night the heads went down after the second try. Pathetic.

Worth a go - especially a Hohaia/Gaskell 7/6 partnership.

Ouch........... you must be really fed up

Thing is Saints types, I don't think you are a million miles away from getting back on the horse.

Saints' primary problem is being easy to read/control in attack. Virtually all sides now play with their fullback as an additional ball handler/attacker popping up either side of the PTB making defences guess/stretch to counter this. With Saints attacking from around marker/first receiver it is easier to concentrate defences around that area to suffocate the attack. The loss of Graham and his ability to draw players in whilst tipping the ball on has also compounded this.

If Roby gets a roll on from dummy half he will still hurt the opposition, control it, and he is pretty damn nullified. Lomax too, can be got at due to him being your only playmaker and standing close to the PTB at first receiver. Hohaia at stand-off is purely wasteful, give him space/broken defences and his footwork and speed will be a far greater asset.

My two'penneth: Hohaia to fullback, where he appears to have played for NZ/Warriors for the past three years (reasons as above); Wellens to loose forward, his experience and pretty decent passing game would give Lomax some much needed support in the middle of the pitch, a variation on Sinfield, if you will. I think his defensive contribution would also lighten the load on Roby, keeping him fresher in attack. Finally; Gaskell (possibly Wilkin) in at stand-off. It would give a little more control/organisation to the side and leesen the responsibilty on Lomax, who appears to be tasked to do everything.

This is obviously a short term solution, as I I think any side would struggle bringing two young halfbacks through together. I certainly think you need to bring in an experienced halfback next season to aid the development of Lomax/Gaskell.

It's not without risk. But provided Hohaia cedes responsibility for organising the attack (and kicking) to Gaskell and concentrates on giving him the quickest and most reliable service possible we may be able to salvage something from the season.

I'm not entirely happy about putting so much responsibility on Gaskell's shoulders (although I do think he can deal with it better than Lomax) but we're kind of out of options. Besides, he is the future and the sooner we gear our game around his talent the quicker we can gain some attacking traction.

I can see your house from up here

You are now starting to achieve the same status level as robinson on these boards.

Where is that clown smilie when you need it!!!!!!!