Effort, enthusiasm and courage are no longer enough. We need pace at that position. Why are people still struggling to see this especially when they're the same people that normally complain about the lack of pace on the wing? We need to bite the bullet on this and it has been something that's been a serious concern since at least the second Grand Final loss to Leeds. He has been a great player but this isn't football and physical discrepancies can be cruelly exposed in the most subtle ways at this level i.e. kick returns, linking up, breaks that can't go further than a few metres.

If anyone wants a reminder of what having pace at full back can do, go and look at Amos Roberts' tries during that glorious run he had just before his injury. It was incredible stuff.

75-0 against a reserve side led by Ian Millward looks amazing on paper, and I'm not surprised you're still after all this time dining out on it.

I'd suggest that the several beatings we've put on your first choice sides lately are a bit more substantial than that one freak result, wouldn't you? You might open your other eye to see it, though, that's the only problem.

Look, love, put your fishing rod away. I didn't say that and you know it.

You will also see that I have been supportive of your predicament in other posts.

75-0 will always be wonderful. It was wonderful in 2006 when we won everything on offer. It is wonderful today when we have won nothing for years. It will always be wonderful and it is good of you to remind us of it.



(At least we have two eyes to open ...)

Fair enough. I presume you mean consistently distinctly average, in which case you have a point.

Ive bagged Perry for a lot this season and i refuse to believe anyone actually thinks this guy is any good. Lacklustre in attack a lot of the time and often standard in defence. Wigan are a freakish team, they have players that can slot so easily into the prop position from second row. Hock does it with ease and id imagine that Hansen could do it. We have one player who can play both positions, TP. Clough occasionally does it but i see him more as a ball carrying 11 getting the tough yards to compensate for Perry being out there at the same time basically doing what Gilmour used to do. Franchise has been the best prop we have without doubt, shame he is a good 2nd row forward playing out of positions to paper over the cracks Jammer left.

The back line is a mystery, how certain players get extensions is quite unbelievable. Then again we have to think of how many "Saints standard" wingers are out there and have been available. Many of the wingers in SL are products of a youth system, they have taken their chances in the 1st team and kept their places, then signed 4/5 year deals. The truth is we got stung at the worst time as we were very lax in the youth system out wide and then when Albert left we had a big hole. There is no way Saints could afford a Briscoe, Jones Bishop, Charnley etc etc and i don't think they have the patience for it either.

I cannot fathom a reason why Saints (and Brown) would offer Wellens a new deal, he isn't the type of player Brown likes and i can't believe that Paul doesn't know his time is up too. Long left when we didn't give him what he wanted, sorry Wello but i wouldn't offer you 1 year. His replacement is tough though, i don't think Makinson is as capable under the high ball ( see Saturday for examples) and Ashe I've seen little of. Lomax is an option but then the half back carousel goes round again and we can't afford to mix it around like we have Wheeler in, Gaskell in, Hohaia in etc etc.

I'd happily take a decent season with a win or two in the playoffs but time for rebuilding does not start with 80 minutes at Old Trafford. A long as Leeds/Wire/Wigan don't win it id be happy.

And twelve fingers to count them on.

I've only seen Makinson fluff two catches, and the one on Saturday was in his hands but nicked by the oncoming Wigan attack. That ball was supposed to go to Gelling and he'd already beaten Gelling to it. Give the lad a break. To judge his whole potential on one occasion is ridiculous.

Personally, I'd be very happy for him to be given a shot at fullback on a regular basis. That will help improve his game and give him the experience he needs.

I agree with this,you cant judge someone for dropping the ball now and then,its rare he misses a catch and even the best players in the world drop them now and again,his pace from fullback would really trouble defences

Hohaia
Swift
Jones
Shenton
Makinson
Wheeler
Gaskell
Lms
Roby
Laffranchi
Soliola
Wilkin
Lomax



Hohaia to full back must happen now. Move Shenton over to the left centre role see if it can bring about some improvement. Wheeler to move into six with Gaskell pulling the strings at 7. Unfortunately not much we can do with the front row. Use wilkin as a ball playing elusive running second row. And shift Lomax into loose forward into the way in which hudds use Kevin Brown. None of this will happen but if Nathan Brown was coaching us now i could envisage a similar line up.

When we play you at the HJ in a few months time, please please play this team. With each player in the positions given above.

They can try it out at the Etihad in two weeks just too see if it works.

McManus needs to be ruthless with the squad just like he has been with the coach.

Simmons wasn't good enough, McManus knew it and he acted. He went for the man he wanted and has got him for next season. A short term hit for a medium / long term gain.

He needs to do the same with some of the playing staff and get rid of the dead wood and be ambitious with the recruitment.

I'm looking at a potential team and picking holes in several areas~:

1. New FB required - Wellens gives it everything, but it's such a pivotal position offensively now. You need pace in abundance in this area. His output in comparison to Tomkins just doesn't compare. Makinson or Lomax are potential replacements, with Lomax being the most obvious.
2. Gardner - I don't mind Gardner personally, he's done a good job for us. His strike rate is very impressive. It's lower down the priorities for me.
3. New Centre required (Turner?) - Shenton has been a huge disappointment. He's just a solid player who doesn't really do anything. You can't have strike Centres doing nothing. Willie Talau wasn't prolific but he had a knack of scoring big tries or coming up with a big hit to change a game. What does Shenton actually do?
4. Wheeler / Jones - I'm quite happy to give Wheeler or Jones a go here. If we had a more balanced attack they'd flourish more.
5. Makinson - The kid turns up in big games. I can see the thinking behind bringing the experienced pro's back into the team at the expense of the inexperienced players, but Makinson has done little wrong and his pace is good enough to cause a real threat with good service.
6. New number 6 required - Sorry Lance, you're never a 6 in the memory of man. The biggest priority is this area IMO.
7. Gaskell / Lomax - I don't think we can afford to pick both in the halves but one of them alongside an experienced, organising half back like a Briers, Finch or Brough and they'd both do very well and develop. Sean Long had Tommy Martyn and Pryce later had Sean Long, Lomax / Gaskell need guidance.
8. Laffranchi - Quite happy with him, I think he's done a good job in replacing the world's best prop. Not the same calibre of player, but not a disappointment either.
9. Roby - easy pick.
10. New prop required - I think we lack a big prop who leads from the front and causes damage up front. We have hard working toilers, but no-one that really dominates the opposition.
11. Manu?
12. Soliola
13. Wilkin

14. Flanaghan
15. Puletua - could be equally devastating in the front row, back row or bench
16. LMS - Needs to step up, he's been a bit disappointing for me but shows quality in patches. I wouldn't wield the axe yet.
17. Clough - An honest toiler, who is undervalued

The likes of Magennis, Ashe, Dixon, Swift, Forster etc in reserve.

Wellens, Shenton, Hohaia, Perry, Meli and Flannery all to go at the end of the season for me. I know 3 aren't OOC, but tough decisions have to be made.

Turner, Manu are supposed to be coming in. I'd then look overseas for a quality half back and prop and move Lomax to full back. Quality over quantity needed.

I prefer to see a player picked on merit. Based on this years performances, meli deserves to be picked before foster, regardless of age, reputation, place of birth etc. what you say certainly matters when contract extensions are concerned, then age and potential need to be considered, but when a coach is picking a team from his available squad, he must do it on merit. That's not to say that I would personally give cap space to either foster or meli, but that's a different argument altogether.

No he doesn't, that is the job for Brown. McManus shouldn't be deciding the squad composition at all, he should be providing the funds, and if necessary doing the negotiations, but Brown should be solely responsible for who comes in and out.

That's an understatement.

Why is Lomax the most obvious? I don't get this line of reasoning at all. Lomax is so much a stand off as to be unreal but people keep wanting to put him at fullback. In Makinson we have a player who coped in his first Grand Final when dropped into the position having turned the game around in our favour, and he did a decent job there given his lack of senior experience in the position. We were winning while he was there until Shenton went off and we had to rely on Meli to defend our left edge. How can anyone then say Lomax is the most obvious fullback? It baffles me. Really.

I'm more inclined to wait and see how certain players perform with a new coach before having a clear out.

Spot on buster. McGuire turned a bunch of underperforming journeymen into champions by introducing organisation, and that is still paying off today. The Wigan squad, bar possibly the turd Tomkins, is no better, man for man than the Saints squad. If Brown is a top coach, he will work with what he has got. The likes of Perry, Shenton, Hohaia, Laffranchi are all internationals, he just has to get them to play like they still should be.

Genius. Comedy gold. You're typing this stuff but you can't believe it, surely?



Only Puletua and Roby would get into a first choice Wigan 17 on current form. We were poor on Saturday and still beat you comfortably. Are you seriously suggesting Tomkins - the best player in SL - is only "possibly" better than Wellens?



You have some decent players but your coaches are way behind the "Ape" and his team (you lot would do well to quit criticising SW, he's doing a really good job and it just makes you look as RL ignorant as the average Wire fan) so you aren't getting the best out of them. Added to this, your team lacks a real will to win and the continued selection of the likes of Hohaia and Wellens is as misguided as it is welcome (to Wigan fans!).

His argument is based on quality of player, not current form. It's quite possible that a good coach (and we believe we have one for next year) could bring the best out of our undoubtedly underperforming players this year, and if so it's quite possible that more than just TP and Roby would be shoe-ins for a merged Saints / Wigan side (god forbid that should ever happen!!).

Players like Perry, Shenton, Hohaiah, LMS, Wilkin are without question currently failing to replicate the performances that prompted us to sign them. Should a coach be able to relight the fire in them, they are 5 international quality players. Not to mention the improvements to the young kids in Lomax, Gaskell, Makinson, Foster, et al that a top coach can influence.

We're miles away... on current form. With each set of players firing, we're not quite so far.

Whilst it's all fine to pull the trigger on players in a forum as we all know the law and finance will not allow it.

You can't terminate contracts mid flow without shelling out and if you did the law would take you to pieces.

If you could terminate contracts then I would line up as follows

1. Lomax
2. Makinson
3. Turner
4. Wheeler (if he can stay fit if not a new centre)
5. New winger
6. Gaskell
7. New scrum half
8. La Franki
9. Roby
10. New Prop
11. Manu
12. Sia
13. TP

14. LMS
15. New Prop
16. New 2nd Rower
17. Josh Jones
7.

The truth is that many have believed the Saints publicity machine.

Hohiah - world class halfback.
Perry - enforcer prop.
Laffranchi - top class prop.
Solioa - world class tough player, (46 metres only 13 tackles, and 4 missed tackles, Hock laughed his b*ll*cks off at him on Saturday)
Wheeler - top class young player.
Flanagan - a major coup signing from Australia.
Roby - best hooker in the world.
Shenton - best centre in England.

Wake up and smell the coffee.

Its possible. Wello we shouldnt renew. Shenton could be offered to Cas free of charge, he'd be happier and so would they. Lance and Perry are more difficult. Unless they and their wives/girlfriend are homesick there's little we can do, but we can make life harder so they just leave. Lance or Perry wouldnt sit out their contracts in the reserves, they'd go home.

Hock had by far the superior game, but he took about 5 backwards steps when Soliola got in his face so hardly laughing at him. Watch the match and count them if you don't believe me, I can assure you I was laughing my testicles off at the time.