I think it's pretty obvious why we aren't doing well atm.

The is a few reasons mate.

We playing with a backrow at scrumhalf, playing with wello/Howarth/hohaia at 6 and non are halves, we got injuries to key attacking players, we had 12 men yesterday and also, we just ain't the team some fans think we are.

Poor recruitment is our problem, simple as. We let other teams beat us to players, e.g. Moon to Leeds, Taylor to Wigan, and bring in over the hill Aussies with no fight or quality. Can't blame Brown for that, but playing Wellens at 6 and bringing in Howarth seem dodgy moves.

I said in 2008/2009 that this would happen and nobody believed me, the signs was there. We'd stopped signing players as the likes of scully,longy, KC etc was getting old.

I hate to say it but the club lost ambition and that's why we are now at middle table club.

Why not play Jordan Turner at six he's played there before for Salford hasn't he and the odd game for Hull I think

It would be an option and probably not a bad one. Howarth and Wello are just so bad there it's making us a laughing stock

Agree with this. As a Hull fan who wears any team's coloured spectacles if they're playing Rovers it was obvious even to blinkered me that Saints came out to play wrestling dirty rugby. You were lucky to only lose Meli in that first half.

That's not St Helens, but sadly it does appear to be Brown's way. I like your club a lot and have massive respect for you as do most RL fans. People don't like Leeds much. Or Wigan. Or Wire. But no-one seems to hate Saints. That's because you've always been seen go do things fairly both as a club and on the field. This season's style is an anathema to you and therefore isn't working.

(Oh, and Brown isn't using Manu right, either. Which is why you're not seeing him at his best when he's played.)

I think a lot of the problems we currently have at Saints are the result of sheer bad luck.

Perry has been a shadow of the player he was in the NRL, that's when he's been able to take to the field. Hohaia was a bit of a gamble, which has very much not paid off - but at the time we'd just had Lomax & Gaskell emerging as a very promising halfback pairing. I remember Lafranchi having a very decent first season. He was making the transition from 2nd row to prop (like so many players who've become top-class props) and looked like he'd kick on in his second season. But he's gone backwards.

Each of these have been marquee players for us, had no question marks about their quality at the time of signing, and to have all three fail has been rank misfortune.

So has the stunted development of Lomax, Gaskell & Wheeler as halfbacks - each for entirely different reasons. You can't legislate for that; after 2011, most fans & pundits believed Lomax & Gaskell complimented each other well and were the future halfback pairing for the club.

On the coaching side, Potter came here with good credentials. He'd coached a fairly entertaining Catalans and looked a good appointment. But he wasn't up to the job and instilled an overly cautious approach to our play. But even this wasn't entirely his fault. Rule changes (or, at least, changes to the interpretations of the rules) to allow a slowing of the ptb, wrestling the tackled player on the floor and shorter defensive lines, meant that Saints' style of play (with quick ptb's taking advantage of a disorganised defence) was diminished. But his tenure started the rot.

Saying all that, there have been failings. Some individual players appear to have been handled poorly by both coaching staff and management. We've been unfocused in terms of player recruitment, at times buying a player because they're available, then seeing how to fit them into the team. The standard of player we've brought in to replace departing players has often been lower. With hindsight, 2012 was wasted in terms of player development, as Rush tried to achieve as much for the club as possible, but sacrificed the progression of youngsters in the process.

But Brown isn't blameless this season. We all too often look clueless in attack, and we must employ the tactic of dummy runners the least out of all SL clubs (this going back to Potter's time). The team too often looks unbalanced, and there's too much chopping & changes. I know injuries have caused a lot of this, but the selection policies have been baffling at times, and it's like a 'hit & hope' approach without a longer term plan.

In summary, the reason we sit where we do is a combination of bad luck, some poor coaching appointments, and unfocused player recruitment.

Because he's doing a good job at centre. It would also mean having to play jones in the centres when he should be playing second row.

By Christ, this is a depressing thread. My take? I don't blame Brown in the slightest. How can you? He needs to be given 3 or 4 years to rebuild the team from the ground up.

The fans are going to have to be patient and understand that we are severly lacking in the major pivot positions either due to injury or bad recruitment. I am seriously hoping we will be implementing a firesale in pre-season.

I blame Brown for causing unnecessary disruption to the team at the weekend by playing Howarth and Wello as our halfback combination, which is probably one reason why we were so naff in the first half - we hadn't a clue who was supposed to be doing what. It was totally dumb to mess up our pivots for a knock out game.

It would be okay for the fans if the club was making an effort to improve things. But it isn't, there is no effort or will to improve things.

Greg Eden tore us to pieces yesterday and was ultimately the difference between the sides. He moved to Hull KR for nothing. The club ignored his availability despite our coach saying he could be as good as Billy Slater. Every other club in Super League has at least two established half backs, we have none and we haven't tried to sign any either. Rangi Chase is available now and we're not doing anything. Michael Dobson is also probably available as Hull KR are in a mess financially and again, we've not even attempted anything. Why did Perry, Hohaia and Laffranchi start this season still at Saints? Why weren't they released?

In modern sport no team has 3 or 4 years to build and improve. It no longer works like that. Sport is a short term, results driven business. If the team isn't competitive the fans won't watch them in as great a number. There is a serious risk that we won't even make the play offs this year, that's how far we've dropped. The likes of Hull KR, Hull and Bradford are now arguably better teams than we are and the likes of Huddersfield, Catalans have already passed us. I posted on another thread the stats about our crowd figures. We are probably £1/2m down in terms of revenue by now due to the drop in crowds and next year is going to continue that trend if the club doesn't get back to having a team that is competing for trophies. I've been going to Saints for 25 years and this year is the first time I'm seriously debating not renewing my season ticket and I know plenty of people in that position too. The stadium is half finished and a souless place to watch sport, the team is a bunch of average players going through the motions and the entertainment value given to the fans is appalling. I really don't see how anyone can claim to enjoy watching Saints at the moment, it's more of a chore than a pleasure these days.

McManus just needs to stop being so lazy with his recruitment decisions. He's making easy choices, signing players that are okay, that will fill the gap. There is no desire or commitment to improve anything. It's time for the club to find the money and invest in the players to get us back into contention. Transfer fees are such a taboo word around the club, but it's the time now where they either have to do it or leave. There is nothing to be gained from going through the motions like we are now. We'll miss out on the commercial potential of the stadium and will still be massively loss making. Spending some money now and getting us back to being a vibrant, exciting team and having 15,000+ crowds is essential.

Very good post. I agree. There has undoubtedly been misfortune and unforseeable events. However, as you so rightly say, this isn't a sufficient excuse for the directionless play and the often baffling selection options. There are still some very good players at the club, who would walk into most SL sides as automatic selections. That we're in danger of slipping out of the top 8 is a fairly damning indictment of Brown's inability to get the best out of what he has, just as much as it is a consequence of bad luck and poor recruitment.

Jordan Turner IMO is a winger. He's got the makings of being a good centre but he needs a rocket up his bum. He's got no desire or motivation. He just goes thru the motions.

I'd honestly be looking for a centre and Turner being a winger.

I think it would depend on who you can recruit. If you can recruit a winger, he stays at centre, if you can recruit a centre then he can take Meli's Wing.

To those sirens shouting we must make a signing now, i give you one name Hohoia.

That is what happens when you make quick rash decisions.

Lance is a decent player, but when we signed him quite a few of us thought, yes he is a good player but were will he play for us? For me his best two positions are fullback and hooker, however we have better players there.

Sport is as much about luck as it is about skill in decision making. All the planning in the world can blow up in your face if a player suffers a key injury or someone you were looking to build your team around decides he wants to play RU or move to the NRL. In Eastmond, Saints lost the then England halfback, and in Graham we lost the Worlds best prop forward. No team would be able to handle such losses without repercussions.

A good example of luck in signings is Sean Long. He was a Wigan reject playing lower division football. Saints took a punt on him despite having other players in the halves. Many people at the time were wondering were he would fit into the team as we had Tommy Martyn, Bobbie Goulding, Lee Briers and Karl Hammond to cover in the halves, yet look how that all turned out.

Paul Wellens has for me been a St.Helens legend. He has been an anchor at the back for club and country, being one of the best British players of his generation. However for the last few years its been increasingly plain for people to see that the Anchor has been turning into a lead weight that has been dragging the team down. Last year Paul had an excellent season being our top try scorer, top tackle buster, top clean break maker and fourth best in try assists.
To a significant extent we were dependant on Paul last year to pull things out of the bag. This raised the conundrum in my mind that I felt it was time to hand over the number one shirt to a new player but in doing so the side would take a hit due to the readjustment the team would have to make in terms of playing style. I was worried about the scale of the hit we would take. We are seeing that hit now as by moving Lomax from the halves to the fullback slot it has left a gaping hole in the halves. It is to Nathan Browns credit that he has been prepared to take the tough decision and move things on rather than play it safe. Other recent coaches were not prepared to do this, and that has made the task all the harder for the team to adjust to life without Wello.

Saints have the nucleus for a good side. I can see that Brown is looking to give us more pace in the backline, we can see that in his signing of Turner, the use of Lomax and Makinson at fullback and the promotion of the pacey but young Percival that there is the makings of a strike threat from deep.

He has identified that the pack is small. I think this was masked in recent years by Graham and Roby. Graham did the work of two props, and Robys scooting made us yards that the forwards themselves couldnt make. Robys injury has shown to everyone how easily out muscled our front row is. By ridding ourselves of the addiction to scooting which was started by Milward, then we should have a more balanced side that in big games would be harder to combat. It wont simply be a case of stopping Roby from running at dummy half. I noticed before Robys injury that he was playing a different game this season. Gone was the obsession from running from dummy half, instead he was merely stepping out of dummy half and using his self as a foil for the other forwards to run onto. This to me was an indication of the change in style to a more orthodox gameplan of letting the props make the yards rather than the hooker.

I also think he knew we were short in the halves. Comments from him indicated that he was unsure with lance as a halfback, and selections have shown that he isnt keen to play Hohioa there, preferring him at hooker.
Lomax was moved from scrum half were his talent was being wasted, and Gaskell was fired off due to alleged lack of professionalism.
Wheeler i suspect is in Browns plans as one of the halfbacks, but has unfortunately suffered that serious injury.

I therefore suspect that next year Brown will want to bring in two big props and a scrum half.
Get that right and we will have the makings of a very good team.

Percival and jones are better than him.

Turner is one of them players that really frustrates me. If he put a extra 10% in he'd actually break the line. Hes just happy to be out there and go thru the motions.

Disagree with you. I thought Turner showed again against Hull KR that he can give a wingman some lovely passes.
He lacks the agility and change of pace to dance around people, but his size and pace does mean he sucks in tacklers and makes yards in the contact zone.

I get the impression Pete that what you are asking for is Mal Meninga, and because you arent getting that, you have dismissed his ability as a player.
Funnily enough when Meninga was at Saints there were some who felt he was lazy.

Excellent post mate.

No mate I wasn't looking for a mal meninga (would be nice). Like I said, Turner had done ok and I've backed him on here when most have give him stick.

He just frustrates me because he's got ability. He's big, fast, strong, good footwork but he lacks that little desire to actually break the line.

Me saying he's a winger isn't put down, I just think he's more suited to Wing but could make a good centre if he tried that little harder.

He's only been here for a couple of months. The current squad had nothing to do with Nathan Brown so you can't blame for that side of things. For me, the main issue this season is the pack, and has been for a while now. We aren't talking about an issue than has just popped up this season, we have had this same problem for a while now. Luckily for us, we had James Graham who carried us on his back for a couple of years, and who do we replace him with? A Second Row in Anthony Laffranchi. I have no doubts that he would be a quality second rower, but out front row is so poor that we have no other option but to throw him in there. Even when we had Jammer, we were still struggling against the likes of Wigan and Wire's packs and what ever way you dress it up, we have been overachieving for years now. We reached the Semi Final last year - in fact we were 40 minutes away from Old Trafford. The worst thing that could have happened IMO. We needed to reassess things and start a fresh in Pre Season, and unfortunately 2012 papered over the cracks once again.

Wigan and Warrington have both been through periods like this one, but the fans got behind there club and backed them 100%. It may take a year, it may take two or even three, but we will come back stronger, I have no doubt about that. Leeds are coming to a stage now where the likes of Sinfield, McGuire and Burrow are approaching the end of their playing careers, and I expect that they will go through a similar sort of period to what we are going through. Brown has given a great amount of young players an opportunity this season, and although that may be down to the injury situation, he has trusted in them to do the job which will prove to be highly beneficial in the long run.

Our pack consists of five Second Rowers, and our only real Prop is Alex Walmsley - a signing from Batley who I imagined would only play half a dozen games this season. Paul Clough has been superb for us this season, but I still see him as a Back Rower personally. Our only other Prop, Josh Perry, is out injured once again, and LMS doesn't look as though he could care less at the minute. When things start to go wrong, the first man looked at is the coach, but there isn't anything he can do at the minute. He is doing his best with the squad he has, and he deserves a chance with a full squad before people start pointing the finger. We are the only team in the competition without a decent set of props and halves, and they are ultimately the key positions on the field. Look at Hull KR. They aren't superb out wide, but in Dobson and Burns they had two halves who knew exactly what they were doing, and we playing behind a set of props that ran hard and straight and took them forward. Nothing fancy, just hard work, and the halves gave them direction on the back of that.

We have had the same problems for years, and I can't understand how any of that is Nathan Brown's fault. Any coach in the world - no matter how good would struggle to coach these set of players, because the reality is, we aren't good enough in the key areas. You can't fault anyone for effort, but the fact of the matter is that you can't compete against the best sides without a decent set of Props, and a 6 and 7. Until we sort that out we won't go anywhere, no matter who is in charge.

I see your point re rushing anything but the situation with Long wasnt quite as you put it. Briers was already gone , Goulding was volatile, Martyn was injury prone Hammond was a loose forward by then and we were thin on the ground for cover. Longy was ripping it up at Widnes and was a known talent at the time - the pies only got rid for off field issues not a lack of talent.

I think a panic move would be silly but Stevie Wonder can see we need a scrum half so if we could get a decent one in I honestly dont see how we could go wrong (assuming we actually buy a scrum half and not another bloody fullback). If there was a Sean Long somewhere in the Championship I'd love us to sign him up !!

I'd get Sean long until the end of the season if he's up for it. It would be 100% better than we got now.

I'm sure he'd love a last hurrah in the redvee and he couldnt possibly be worse than Wello or Howarth

I don't agree - and I am not trying to start an argument here - but Brown has to work with what he has in the squad for this season. He took a chance on Howarth there to see if he could offer anything we have been missing over the past few weeks. He couldn't. Move on.

Until Brown is given time to ship out the players he doesn't want, and bring in players he does, then we can't really blame him for not having any halves. That blame has to rest on McManus, Simmons and Rush for the players they have brought in and signed up for too long.