I only got back from holiday late last night, so had to be content with watching the recording on the sky+ box.

My initial reaction was that of frustration. Although our pack wasn't smashed, Wire did boss the PTB and therefore were getting quicker, cleaner ball. Ours was slow and therefore we strggled to test the defence.
My reaction - Is this what it comes down to? Whoever gets the quick plays wins the game.
However, this morning I've watched the Hudds-Cas game from last week. Neither team were managing particulary quick PTB like wire got last night, but they still managed to get the ball wide to the 3/4s in a manner we don't. Something really needs working on there.

That said, I don't think you'll see Wire play as well as that every week (in defence at least)- they were really possesed at times and they're a seriously big pack to take on, especially when they've got their tails up. At least we've got the hoodoo at the way - no more wondering when the loss will come.

Always worked for Saints and now Wigan, so yes I suppose so but that's not really news is it?

I agree with this the game had a feel of 'pre season friendly' about it. Even the Saints fans didn't seem to care that much.

Spot on. They shut down Roby by dominating in that area. I don't recall us making any serious yardage around the PTB which impacted on the forwards who were taking the ball up.



It's been like that since Super League I. If you dominate the ruck you will put yourself in a good position to win the game. It has always been so.

I obviously never minded when we were the best at it, though



Seriously though, as I said, without the quick plays, Cas & Hudds still managed to at least look slightly dangerous out wide. We're too one dimensional, which was exaggerated by a very powerful performance by Wire.

I don't think it will be a Bradford style transition, especially with the new stadium coming along, it will be more like Arsenal in football.

These days Arsenal are credible contenders every season, they are always there or thereabouts, but every year they are not quite there. And their supporters can remember the teams of 2002 and 2004 when they used to watch their team smash everybody off the park.

There's a cyclical nature of success in any sport when you have a team which has a core of familiar faces which form the heart of success. Saints have had to face it and Leeds are approaching that stage as well.

One thing which will even it up though is that the 'new forces' in the game are not dominant in the way the old powers were. Wigan look good but they aren't the level Saints or Leeds were a few years ago. Warrington are an unknown quantity because they are on the one hand a club on the rise, but on the other hand a team with some key players approaching the end of their careers, so there will be a transition element there....are the last few years a temporary upturn in Wires fortunes or the start of a longer period of being a force? A few years ago Hull were in a similar position and they faded.

So I can see a situation even if Saints are going through an uncertain time of chopping and changing players and coaches for a few seasons, where they will always be in touch and will be able to pick up trophies here and there despite not being the finished article, which will be different from clubs like Bradford who just went on an inexorable slide.

From a neutral perspective, you just don't have the scary pack like you used to, when you'd have fast rampaging props plus Keiron leading the charge. Only Graham looked like he was up for the physical side. It might have helped a little bit if Kyle hadn't seem scared to get an injury (I wonder why?), but the Saints line-up just doesn't seem as awesome as it did a few years ago.

Early doors, but my prediction is 5th place, behind Wigan, Wire, Leeds and Huddersfield (and just to get the dig in first, I know that will still be 9 places above Wakey and that we will be playing Batley next year).

Bare in mind that we do have Josh Perry to come back yet. A pack of Graham, Roby, Perry, Puletua, Soliola and Wilkin is hardly lacking. It's more the backs that won't scare anyone. Only Shenton with any pace and he's very much learning the trade still.

Don't get me wrong, that is a pack that I wish were in Wakey jerseys, but it just doesn't seem as dominant. Strong, yes, but scary? Not so sure.

You're right about the backs though. Now that Kyle is on his way, at least you can focus on someone who wants to wear the shirt. You've done so well on the back of centres though. So many tries from Gardner came from about a yard out, and so that's all down to centre play. I was a huge fan of Gidley, because he just never seemed to do anything wrong. Skilful but dependable. Shenton will have to go some to match him.

The thing that stands out like a sore thumb with Saints is you have no obvious out and out pace in the three quarters, long gone are the days where you used to score long range tries for fun with the likes of Darren Albert and Anthony Sullivan etc, you used to have centres like Paul Newlove, Jamie Lyon and Willie Talau at his peak etc that in the blink of an eye could take you from one end of the pitch to the other.

From what ive seen of you in recent times you need to be in the oppositions 20 to score the bulk of your points, saints in the past were always a danger from anywhere on the pitch and teams were wary of that, ive not seen that kind of danger for a while now.

Saints have always, always, always pummelled teams in to submission by getting lightning quick PTB's and making huge yardage out of dummy half or bringing runners back in to the ruck and putting the markers under extreme pressure, at it's most effective the markers couldn't cope giving easy yardage, at it's most advantageous was penalties from not square markers, piggy backing you up the field.

If you don't believe me just watch (if you have the DVDs) any of your "great comeback" and/or "late winner" games, usually involving Warrington lol, and it's mostly happened from getting up field as quick as possible and stunning the opposition. You can then add in the genuinely creative/special plays as well (wide to west type things), and that combination of simple go-forward combined with scary talent and ability was what always made Saints the best team in SL to watch as a neutral.

I'd say you look disorganised in your backs at the moment, and that's not exactly unexpected, Eastmond's head is clearly up his own right now, Gaskell tried but is inexperienced, you didn't have Pryce on the field and you no longer have a loose forward of the calibre of Sculthorpe who can step in and do the halfbacks role when they're not at their most effective. So at the moment, I'd say that leaves you with plan A of fast movement up field being your best play this season.

I've read criticism of Roby on here the past couple of days, but I've got to say, I think that's entirely unfair on him and unjustified, to put it simply - Warrington's marker defence actually WORKED on Friday night, obviously that's not something anyone (especially us wire fans) is used to seeing from a Warrington team for the vast majority of SL history, but it had a huge bearing on the proceedings on Friday evening. Had our marker defence been what it was a couple of seasons ago, then Roby would have torn us to pieces and the result would have been very much "business as usual" as far as the Saints/Wire derby goes.

Around the 60 minute mark, you didn't have a clean break and we hadn't missed a tackle. I also think we outgained you by some way and you were ahead on the penalty count. We were better in almost every facet of the game. It was a bad day at the office, simple as that. Despite whatever spin your try and put on it or belittle Warringtons performance.

Understatement of the month! Not only do we not have two functioning halfbacks, we have the centre who practised with the team in the off season out injured and no-one of any use in that position to cover. We have a defensive liability in Meli on one wing/covering centre and an inconsistent player in Gardner on the other wing. We haven't yet played with a full team on the pitch. Not only that but we have a coach who is trying to undo the style of play you mentioned and the team haven't yet clicked into it. I doubt very much we will be playing the style you suggest by the end of the season. But as you say, the quality of our side is not what it once was, for whatever reason, and we have the disruption of two, possibly three (if you count Pryce), not knowing where they will be next season. That isn't doing us any good either.

But all of that does not make any difference. Given the team we have at the moment and the style of rugby we are playing at the moment, Warrington played to our weaknesses and kept our main threats silent. That is the way to beat a team and Warrington executed it very well.

I think you can probably apply this statement from August last season to the present date. Successful teams of the past have quality and Stability at 1, 6,7,9 and 13. You can get away with losing a couple of these key positions for a short period of time but against quality opposition any team will struggle.
Stabilty is the key factor for success, Wigan, Warrington, Huddersfield have it, Leeds and Bradford don,t and Saints despite losing the experience and skills of Sculthorpe and Long have still managed to get to the grand finals.

Our biggest problem because of the Eastmond situation is possibly having no settled half back partnership for the whole of this new season. If so the club and Royce need to make the Gaskell/Pyrce combination work pretty quickly. Roby needs to play 80 mins and given the No 13 role, alternatively Wellens at No 13 and Lomax given the No 1 shirt.

Sally - your propensity for comparing situations to that of in other sports/contexts is really starting to remind me of Phil Clarke these days. Almost caricature like. For gods' sake please don't progress to comparing the forwards battle in RL games to the Large Hadron Collider whatever you do.

Jeez, Saddened with sensible analysis.

Will wonders never cease?

I thought the same.

Soundly beaten, my arris! We lost because the Wolfs last line of defence was excellent, we took the wrong or no option too many times in the final 10m area, the Wolfs scored off nearly every chance, and we only got the ball down over their line after 66 mins.
OPTA stats show we made fewer tackles, missed fewere tackles, made more metres, made fewer errors than the Wolfs, and were more disciplined. A good hiding indeed, not.

Got fewer points this season and won fewer trophies the past two years as well.

It was a hiding. Stats mean jack, we were 24-0 then took our foot off the gas. Need to learn to take defeat a bit better, it probably won't happen again for another 16 years so I wouldn't get too down about it.

Unfortunately the most important stat is the 25-18 scoreline.

But it wasn't a hiding like some are suggesting, it was a tough game between two competitive teams. The difference was Wire were alot sharper with the ball, whilst Saints toiled away but couldn't really convert chances until the end when Warrington tired a little. Credit to the Wolfs, they deserved their win.

People have been quoting opta stats for the game lately (and I mean in general, not this specific match). So where are they available online then? as Opta used to be, and I imagine still are, very precious about their data and are usually unwilling to part with it unless you compensate them nicely. I know this from personal experience when I tried to get the data off them for the slstats website.

I don't know if its the same stuff that you are specifying Paul but the Superleague website offers individual player stats [url=http://www.superleague.co.uk/statistics_player.phphere[/url

Are they not in the league express for the televised games?

It's possible. I haven't bought league express for a very long time - I refused (and still to this day refuse) to give Sadler any more of my money when he wouldn't allow Mugwump to buy an advert space for rlfans.

I was more thinking of individual match stats - you can see team and player stats on there which is quite good, but the match stats are omitted which is a huge shame.