Quote ="Mugwump"I'm not picking a fight with anyone. I just want to know the reasons behind the Flannery bashing. If it's a good argument I'm prepared to listen to it. If it's a house Straw Man argument setting Flannery up as a "supposedly" great player (despite never being described as such in Australia) and then knocking him over BECAUSE he isn't - I'm going to call it as such. And slating the guy for his "supposed" wages - without KNOWING his wages is just dishonesty - plain and simple.



As for the Australians having a better understanding of player abilities - I think that's a perfectly justifiable argument to make, given the media exposure and critical analysis offered in that country over a broad range of TV, radio and print. The kind we lack here because of the sport's limited appeal.'" />
I'd have to say i've never seen any "hate" directed at him, have you?

Quote ="Mugwump"I'm not picking a fight with anyone. I just want to know the reasons behind the Flannery bashing. If it's a good argument I'm prepared to listen to it. If it's a house Straw Man argument setting Flannery up as a "supposedly" great player (despite never being described as such in Australia) and then knocking him over BECAUSE he isn't - I'm going to call it as such. And slating the guy for his "supposed" wages - without KNOWING his wages is just dishonesty - plain and simple.



As for the Australians having a better understanding of player abilities - I think that's a perfectly justifiable argument to make, given the media exposure and critical analysis offered in that country over a broad range of TV, radio and print. The kind we lack here because of the sport's limited appeal.'" />
I'd have to say i've never seen any "hate" directed at him, have you?

Quote ="Mugwump"I'm not picking a fight with anyone. I just want to know the reasons behind the Flannery bashing. If it's a good argument I'm prepared to listen to it. If it's a house Straw Man argument setting Flannery up as a "supposedly" great player (despite never being described as such in Australia) and then knocking him over BECAUSE he isn't - I'm going to call it as such. And slating the guy for his "supposed" wages - without KNOWING his wages is just dishonesty - plain and simple.



As for the Australians having a better understanding of player abilities - I think that's a perfectly justifiable argument to make, given the media exposure and critical analysis offered in that country over a broad range of TV, radio and print. The kind we lack here because of the sport's limited appeal.'" />


There's nothing "supposedly" about it, if he's played SOO a few times then he was obviously at one time very good indeed. So when we sign a player with that rep we expect to see some of that ability on the field. Even you would surely admit that the Flannery we have at Saints wouldn't have a prayer of getting into SOO based on the form we've seen from him. />


As regards his "supposed" wages, he's clearly on more than he could get in Australia, why else would he come here? If people believe he's on a large wage which they think is too much they might be right and they might be wrong, but they're only dishonest if they know they're wrong when they say it surely?



I agree that the Aussies know their stuff as regards playing ability so if you can show me a report that says he's playing well from an Australian source (or any source for that matter) I'll happily agree. But if you can find one that says he played really well in Australia before he came here doesn't that go against your point that we shouldn't expect him to be great?

Quote ="Mugwump"I'm not picking a fight with anyone. I just want to know the reasons behind the Flannery bashing. If it's a good argument I'm prepared to listen to it. If it's a house Straw Man argument setting Flannery up as a "supposedly" great player (despite never being described as such in Australia) and then knocking him over BECAUSE he isn't - I'm going to call it as such. And slating the guy for his "supposed" wages - without KNOWING his wages is just dishonesty - plain and simple.



As for the Australians having a better understanding of player abilities - I think that's a perfectly justifiable argument to make, given the media exposure and critical analysis offered in that country over a broad range of TV, radio and print. The kind we lack here because of the sport's limited appeal.'" />


There's nothing "supposedly" about it, if he's played SOO a few times then he was obviously at one time very good indeed. So when we sign a player with that rep we expect to see some of that ability on the field. Even you would surely admit that the Flannery we have at Saints wouldn't have a prayer of getting into SOO based on the form we've seen from him. />


As regards his "supposed" wages, he's clearly on more than he could get in Australia, why else would he come here? If people believe he's on a large wage which they think is too much they might be right and they might be wrong, but they're only dishonest if they know they're wrong when they say it surely?



I agree that the Aussies know their stuff as regards playing ability so if you can show me a report that says he's playing well from an Australian source (or any source for that matter) I'll happily agree. But if you can find one that says he played really well in Australia before he came here doesn't that go against your point that we shouldn't expect him to be great?

Quote ="Harry Pinner"There's nothing "supposedly" about it, if he's played SOO a few times then he was obviously at one time very good indeed.'" />


Very good doing WHAT? Busting every second tackle, or being a flexible and intelligent utility player who won't let you down when you need to use him

Quote ="Harry Pinner"There's nothing "supposedly" about it, if he's played SOO a few times then he was obviously at one time very good indeed.'" />


Very good doing WHAT? Busting every second tackle, or being a flexible and intelligent utility player who won't let you down when you need to use him

Quote ="Saint Simon"waffle. />


You are saying he isnt just an average import, please show us how where he has performed consistantly to deserve a quota spot. />


I'll compare him to our best young british backrower, Cloughy last year



www.superleague.co.uk/statistics">www.superleague.co.uk/statistics_player.php?hs1=2009&hp1=970&hs2=2009&hp2=1810&stat=metres&season=2010">www.superleague.co.uk/statistics ... eason=2010



and a player , imo worth his quota spot, tony P



www.superleague.co.uk/statistics">www.superleague.co.uk/statistics_player.php?hs1=2009&hp1=970&hs2=2009&hp2=1201&stat=metres&season=2010">www.superleague.co.uk/statistics ... eason=2010



He is just average, as you think otherwise, please show me some evidence'"

Quote ="Saint Simon"waffle. />


You are saying he isnt just an average import, please show us how where he has performed consistantly to deserve a quota spot. />


I'll compare him to our best young british backrower, Cloughy last year



www.superleague.co.uk/statistics">www.superleague.co.uk/statistics_player.php?hs1=2009&hp1=970&hs2=2009&hp2=1810&stat=metres&season=2010">www.superleague.co.uk/statistics ... eason=2010



and a player , imo worth his quota spot, tony P



www.superleague.co.uk/statistics">www.superleague.co.uk/statistics_player.php?hs1=2009&hp1=970&hs2=2009&hp2=1201&stat=metres&season=2010">www.superleague.co.uk/statistics ... eason=2010



He is just average, as you think otherwise, please show me some evidence'"

Quote ="Mugwump"I deal in evidence - not dishonesty.'" />
so show us some that shows Flannery isnt just average. I suspect you can't

Quote ="Mugwump"I deal in evidence - not dishonesty.'" />
so show us some that shows Flannery isnt just average. I suspect you can't

Quote ="Mugwump"I deal in evidence - not dishonesty.'" />


i'm still waiting for the evidence of a hatred towards Flannery.

Quote ="Mugwump"I deal in evidence - not dishonesty.'" />


i'm still waiting for the evidence of a hatred towards Flannery.

Quote ="Mugwump"All good teams need solid players. Why should we only buy British ones? '"



Because solid second rowers is what british clubs do best. Saints Academy have produced many in the last decade. This is why our national side has a good pack and poor backs. Teams need to use there quota wisely to provide something that can not be provided by a domestic player. />

Quote ="Mugwump"All good teams need solid players. Why should we only buy British ones? '"



Because solid second rowers is what british clubs do best. Saints Academy have produced many in the last decade. This is why our national side has a good pack and poor backs. Teams need to use there quota wisely to provide something that can not be provided by a domestic player. />

Quote ="ABP'"He's similar to Phil Bailey. />


I'm not a massive fan of Bailey but you do realise how big his presence is when he's missing from the team. Any hardworking, solid & former Australian international will do alot of very good & often unoticed work particularily in defence and their experience will rub off onto youngsters. />


However, for the signing there must a decent balance between wages and quota spots in relation to the rest of the squad.'" />


Good post. That is a good comparison.

Quote ="ABP'"He's similar to Phil Bailey. />


I'm not a massive fan of Bailey but you do realise how big his presence is when he's missing from the team. Any hardworking, solid & former Australian international will do alot of very good & often unoticed work particularily in defence and their experience will rub off onto youngsters. />


However, for the signing there must a decent balance between wages and quota spots in relation to the rest of the squad.'" />


Good post. That is a good comparison.

Quote ="Noel Cleal"Good post. That is a good comparison.'" />


It is a good comparison - both could be replaced with equivalent/better British players or vastly superior Australians.

Quote ="Noel Cleal"Good post. That is a good comparison.'" />


It is a good comparison - both could be replaced with equivalent/better British players or vastly superior Australians.

Quote ="Saint Simon"so show us some that shows Flannery isnt just average. I suspect you can't'"



Phuck! This is getting tedious now. For the last time - when Flannery was fit and got an extended run of games in the first team last season he was one of our best players. He tackled everything that moved. He hit the line on good angles. He was the primary go-to forward on kick throughs. He made few mistakes. He was invariably on for up to 60-70 mins. He weighed in with tries. And when he was asked to fill in in other positions he did so.



I'm only saying what a lot of people were IN HERE last year. I recall a conversation with McClennan past mid-season in which he said Flannery was really showing his worth.



Are you DENYING that such wasn't written or said? If the database hasn't culled the older threads I'm perfectly happy to write some SQL to retrieve them. />


I am talking here about a FIT Flannery. Injured-dogged Flannery - sure, his form has been sketchy. But I expect such from any similarly afflicted player. />


This thread is now boring me and almost certainly making me dumber. I still can't quite work out why I'm the guy who needs to provide "evidence" (presumably to fulfil some logical test to find absolute truth) when others are prepared to ship Flannery out on the strength of his high wages (even though they have no knowledge OF his wages) and use informal [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_manStraw Man[/url fallacies that begin by billing Flannery in Australia as something he is not and then claiming VICTORY in this debate because he isn't such. The level of double-think here has now reached toxicity. Until someone is prepared to extend this thread with reasoned, logically sound argument I can't be bothered any more.

Quote ="Saint Simon"so show us some that shows Flannery isnt just average. I suspect you can't'"



Phuck! This is getting tedious now. For the last time - when Flannery was fit and got an extended run of games in the first team last season he was one of our best players. He tackled everything that moved. He hit the line on good angles. He was the primary go-to forward on kick throughs. He made few mistakes. He was invariably on for up to 60-70 mins. He weighed in with tries. And when he was asked to fill in in other positions he did so.



I'm only saying what a lot of people were IN HERE last year. I recall a conversation with McClennan past mid-season in which he said Flannery was really showing his worth.



Are you DENYING that such wasn't written or said? If the database hasn't culled the older threads I'm perfectly happy to write some SQL to retrieve them. />


I am talking here about a FIT Flannery. Injured-dogged Flannery - sure, his form has been sketchy. But I expect such from any similarly afflicted player. />


This thread is now boring me and almost certainly making me dumber. I still can't quite work out why I'm the guy who needs to provide "evidence" (presumably to fulfil some logical test to find absolute truth) when others are prepared to ship Flannery out on the strength of his high wages (even though they have no knowledge OF his wages) and use informal [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_manStraw Man[/url fallacies that begin by billing Flannery in Australia as something he is not and then claiming VICTORY in this debate because he isn't such. The level of double-think here has now reached toxicity. Until someone is prepared to extend this thread with reasoned, logically sound argument I can't be bothered any more.

Quote ="Mugwump"Phuck! This is getting tedious now. For the last time - when Flannery was fit and got an extended run of games in the first team last season he was one of our best players. He tackled everything that moved. He hit the line on good angles. He was the primary go-to forward on kick throughs. He made few mistakes. He was invariably on for up to 60-70 mins. He weighed in with tries. And when he was asked to fill in in other positions he did so.



I'm only saying what a lot of people were IN HERE last year. I recall a conversation with McClennan past mid-season in which he said Flannery was really showing his worth.



Are you DENYING that such wasn't written or said? If the database hasn't culled the older threads I'm perfectly happy to write some SQL to retrieve them. />


I am talking here about a FIT Flannery. Injured-dogged Flannery - sure, his form has been sketchy. But I expect such from any similarly afflicted player. />


This thread is now boring me and almost certainly making me dumber. I still can't quite work out why I'm the guy who needs to provide "evidence" (presumably to fulfil some logical test to find absolute truth) when others are prepared to ship Flannery out on the strength of his high wages (even though they have no knowledge OF his wages) and use informal [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_manStraw Man[/url fallacies that begin by billing Flannery in Australia as something he is not and then claiming VICTORY in this debate because he isn't such. The level of double-think here has now reached toxicity. Until someone is prepared to extend this thread with reasoned, logically sound argument I can't be bothered any more.'" />


Nobody hates Flannery, plenty think we can do better with the quota spot. It's very simple.

Quote ="Mugwump"Phuck! This is getting tedious now. For the last time - when Flannery was fit and got an extended run of games in the first team last season he was one of our best players. He tackled everything that moved. He hit the line on good angles. He was the primary go-to forward on kick throughs. He made few mistakes. He was invariably on for up to 60-70 mins. He weighed in with tries. And when he was asked to fill in in other positions he did so.



I'm only saying what a lot of people were IN HERE last year. I recall a conversation with McClennan past mid-season in which he said Flannery was really showing his worth.



Are you DENYING that such wasn't written or said? If the database hasn't culled the older threads I'm perfectly happy to write some SQL to retrieve them. />


I am talking here about a FIT Flannery. Injured-dogged Flannery - sure, his form has been sketchy. But I expect such from any similarly afflicted player. />


This thread is now boring me and almost certainly making me dumber. I still can't quite work out why I'm the guy who needs to provide "evidence" (presumably to fulfil some logical test to find absolute truth) when others are prepared to ship Flannery out on the strength of his high wages (even though they have no knowledge OF his wages) and use informal [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_manStraw Man[/url fallacies that begin by billing Flannery in Australia as something he is not and then claiming VICTORY in this debate because he isn't such. The level of double-think here has now reached toxicity. Until someone is prepared to extend this thread with reasoned, logically sound argument I can't be bothered any more.'" />


Nobody hates Flannery, plenty think we can do better with the quota spot. It's very simple.

Quote ="Mugwump"Duly Noted (a PostIt on my monitor). I'll make a point of reminding you of this the next time we have a slump in form and the usual suspects come slinking out to vent their bile.'" />


Lovely. Do remember the distinction between hate and criticism when you do though, thanks very much.

Quote ="Mugwump"Duly Noted (a PostIt on my monitor). I'll make a point of reminding you of this the next time we have a slump in form and the usual suspects come slinking out to vent their bile.'" />


Lovely. Do remember the distinction between hate and criticism when you do though, thanks very much.

Quote ="FearTheVee"Nobody hates Flannery, plenty think we can do better with the quota spot. It's very simple.'" />


We can? How do you know? Are you privvy to his wages? Can we get a better player to come over given the salary that hes on? What about Gidley? When fit hes been missing for nearly 2 years now. But then goldenboy is exempt from all critiscism.

Quote ="FearTheVee"Nobody hates Flannery, plenty think we can do better with the quota spot. It's very simple.'" />


We can? How do you know? Are you privvy to his wages? Can we get a better player to come over given the salary that hes on? What about Gidley? When fit hes been missing for nearly 2 years now. But then goldenboy is exempt from all critiscism.

Quote ="Codarmysaint"We can? How do you know? Are you privvy to his wages? Can we get a better player to come over given the salary that hes on? What about Gidley? When fit hes been missing for nearly 2 years now. But then goldenboy is exempt from all critiscism.'" />


Of course I'm not privvy to his wages (nor are you I'd expect), but I know the money SOO players can demand and I'm certain they're more than the likes of Mossop at Wigan and Westerman at Cas who are already doing more for their clubs than Flannery is for us IMO. Then there's the likes of Morrison at Wakey - I'm sure we could have picked him up for Flannery's wage when he left the Bulls. />


I've got nothing against Flannery, he's a decent player, but I simply won't agree that he is the best we can do for a) the wage and b) the quota spot and I think that is why he gets some criticism. Although the criticism I see and hear is far more muted than some seem to be implying when compared to the true Saints scapegoats.

Quote ="Codarmysaint"We can? How do you know? Are you privvy to his wages? Can we get a better player to come over given the salary that hes on? What about Gidley? When fit hes been missing for nearly 2 years now. But then goldenboy is exempt from all critiscism.'" />


Of course I'm not privvy to his wages (nor are you I'd expect), but I know the money SOO players can demand and I'm certain they're more than the likes of Mossop at Wigan and Westerman at Cas who are already doing more for their clubs than Flannery is for us IMO. Then there's the likes of Morrison at Wakey - I'm sure we could have picked him up for Flannery's wage when he left the Bulls. />


I've got nothing against Flannery, he's a decent player, but I simply won't agree that he is the best we can do for a) the wage and b) the quota spot and I think that is why he gets some criticism. Although the criticism I see and hear is far more muted than some seem to be implying when compared to the true Saints scapegoats.

Quote ="Mugwump"Duly Noted (a PostIt on my monitor). I'll make a point of reminding you of this the next time we have a slump in form and the usual suspects come slinking out to vent their bile.'" />


i'm still waiting for any evidence of any hatred in the first place...?

Quote ="Mugwump"Duly Noted (a PostIt on my monitor). I'll make a point of reminding you of this the next time we have a slump in form and the usual suspects come slinking out to vent their bile.'" />


i'm still waiting for any evidence of any hatred in the first place...?

Quote ="FearTheVee"It is a good comparison - both could be replaced with equivalent/better British players or vastly superior Australians.'" />


I wouldn't disagree with that comment. Maybe a little harsh but still true. />


I am surprised that Wigan kept Bailey. I guess it was probably down to there being no better alterantive. But with guys like O'loughlin, Hanson, J Tompkins, Mossop (as well as Liam Farrell not being far off the first team) he could end up surplus to requirements in the near future.

Quote ="FearTheVee"It is a good comparison - both could be replaced with equivalent/better British players or vastly superior Australians.'" />


I wouldn't disagree with that comment. Maybe a little harsh but still true. />


I am surprised that Wigan kept Bailey. I guess it was probably down to there being no better alterantive. But with guys like O'loughlin, Hanson, J Tompkins, Mossop (as well as Liam Farrell not being far off the first team) he could end up surplus to requirements in the near future.

Quote ="Mugwump"Injured-dogged Flannery - sure, his form has been sketchy. But I expect such from any similarly afflicted player. />
'"



So you think we should sign an average injury dogged player in one of our quota spots?

Quote ="Mugwump"Injured-dogged Flannery - sure, his form has been sketchy. But I expect such from any similarly afflicted player. />
'"



So you think we should sign an average injury dogged player in one of our quota spots?

Quote ="Noel Cleal"I wouldn't disagree with that comment. Maybe a little harsh but still true. />


I am surprised that Wigan kept Bailey. I guess it was probably down to there being no better alterantive. But with guys like O'loughlin, Hanson, J Tompkins, Mossop (as well as Liam Farrell not being far off the first team) he could end up surplus to requirements in the near future.'" />
I'd bet he wouldnt be at wigan now if Hock had not been banned

Quote ="Noel Cleal"I wouldn't disagree with that comment. Maybe a little harsh but still true. />


I am surprised that Wigan kept Bailey. I guess it was probably down to there being no better alterantive. But with guys like O'loughlin, Hanson, J Tompkins, Mossop (as well as Liam Farrell not being far off the first team) he could end up surplus to requirements in the near future.'" />
I'd bet he wouldnt be at wigan now if Hock had not been banned

Quote ="Harry Pinner"So you think we should sign an average injury dogged player in one of our quota spots?'"



Depends on the injuries. Are they acute, or chronic (long-term, perhaps even permanent - like Scully's leg, or Hanley's groin)? If we're only talking about acute injuries that the club's physician and/or surgeon expect will heal within three months at the most then - if I believed in the player - I would have no hesitation in re-signing him.



Chronic injuries present a major problem. Some decisions are pretty easy. Anyone with half a brain knew Newlove was finished after he snapped his Achilles. I know that injury is treatable. But I can't think of anyone who has returned from such without being less than the player he once was. Ditto Kevin Ward's compound fracture. Hanley's groin. Scully's hip/thigh. Then there are the hard choices - cruciate knee reconstructions (nine months out), a badly broken arm , shoulder dislocations - these injuries kind of hover in and out of career-destroying like Schrödinger's cat. ATEOTD, you've got to take the best medical advice possible, consider the worth of the player to the team and trust your instincts. It's a risky business that can leave you badly burned when you make the wrong decision. Tommy Martyn was written off after his second cruciate reconstruction and came back to play some of the best rugby ever seen at Knowsley Road. Nick Fozzard wasn't given a prayer after he smashed his arm to pieces at Huddersfield and then on two subsequent returns it broke again. He was on the scrapheap when Warrington took a wild punt on him and it paid off. Think of Steven Gerrard's interminable series of leg injuries between the ages of 20 and 23. Liverpool could quite easily have given up on him and they'd have made the mother of all mistakes. />


I used to believe that there was such a thing as an 'injury prone' player but I don't any more. You get injured being in the wrong place at the wrong time. It's plain old bad luck and Flannery has had more than his fair share of it. They've robbed him of confidence and it shows when he's thrown back into the side and expected to play at his peak as if nothing's happened. When he's got games under his belt and his confidence is high he is a very good back row forward who has attributes that only Wilkin can really match. For all we know from now on he might play without injury for the rest of his career.



Unlike other members of this site I have absolutely no knowledge of his wage. The reasoning that he's on a fortune BECAUSE he was a regular SOO player is faulty. At the time he arrived the £ was still strong against the Aussie dollar so there's a strong possibility he is on a relatively modest wage (a fortune in Australia back then, but less so now - a factor that could well take the decision out of the club's hands anyway). Jamie Lyon - who was regarded as one of the ELITE players in the NRL certainly wasn't on a King's ransom. />


Yes, there are some talented kids coming through - Ashurt, Magennis and the like, but all (especially Magennis, who hasn't got 500 minutes of game time under his belt) have yet to prove that they will PAY their promise. I've lost count of the number of "next big things" at Saints who've bombed for one reason or another. There is a VERY real possibility that NONE of these kids will make the grade. If that happens and we get rid of Flannery, and Puletua retires we could be left in phucktown. />


So it's a tough call. One which could have major consequences (positive or negative). I'd err on the side of caution, but I'm not the one making the decisions.

Quote ="Harry Pinner"So you think we should sign an average injury dogged player in one of our quota spots?'"



Depends on the injuries. Are they acute, or chronic (long-term, perhaps even permanent - like Scully's leg, or Hanley's groin)? If we're only talking about acute injuries that the club's physician and/or surgeon expect will heal within three months at the most then - if I believed in the player - I would have no hesitation in re-signing him.



Chronic injuries present a major problem. Some decisions are pretty easy. Anyone with half a brain knew Newlove was finished after he snapped his Achilles. I know that injury is treatable. But I can't think of anyone who has returned from such without being less than the player he once was. Ditto Kevin Ward's compound fracture. Hanley's groin. Scully's hip/thigh. Then there are the hard choices - cruciate knee reconstructions (nine months out), a badly broken arm , shoulder dislocations - these injuries kind of hover in and out of career-destroying like Schrödinger's cat. ATEOTD, you've got to take the best medical advice possible, consider the worth of the player to the team and trust your instincts. It's a risky business that can leave you badly burned when you make the wrong decision. Tommy Martyn was written off after his second cruciate reconstruction and came back to play some of the best rugby ever seen at Knowsley Road. Nick Fozzard wasn't given a prayer after he smashed his arm to pieces at Huddersfield and then on two subsequent returns it broke again. He was on the scrapheap when Warrington took a wild punt on him and it paid off. Think of Steven Gerrard's interminable series of leg injuries between the ages of 20 and 23. Liverpool could quite easily have given up on him and they'd have made the mother of all mistakes. />


I used to believe that there was such a thing as an 'injury prone' player but I don't any more. You get injured being in the wrong place at the wrong time. It's plain old bad luck and Flannery has had more than his fair share of it. They've robbed him of confidence and it shows when he's thrown back into the side and expected to play at his peak as if nothing's happened. When he's got games under his belt and his confidence is high he is a very good back row forward who has attributes that only Wilkin can really match. For all we know from now on he might play without injury for the rest of his career.



Unlike other members of this site I have absolutely no knowledge of his wage. The reasoning that he's on a fortune BECAUSE he was a regular SOO player is faulty. At the time he arrived the £ was still strong against the Aussie dollar so there's a strong possibility he is on a relatively modest wage (a fortune in Australia back then, but less so now - a factor that could well take the decision out of the club's hands anyway). Jamie Lyon - who was regarded as one of the ELITE players in the NRL certainly wasn't on a King's ransom. />


Yes, there are some talented kids coming through - Ashurt, Magennis and the like, but all (especially Magennis, who hasn't got 500 minutes of game time under his belt) have yet to prove that they will PAY their promise. I've lost count of the number of "next big things" at Saints who've bombed for one reason or another. There is a VERY real possibility that NONE of these kids will make the grade. If that happens and we get rid of Flannery, and Puletua retires we could be left in phucktown. />


So it's a tough call. One which could have major consequences (positive or negative). I'd err on the side of caution, but I'm not the one making the decisions.