All of which would mean you couldn't get an A grade. The criteria published earlier is not the full criteria. The RFL will not take into account grounds that haven't materialised yet, and if renting/leasing etc to get an A grade there must be at least 5 year left on any agreement.

oh, a Saints Wigan dick measuring contest. Lovely

I'm going to bet on StainsFan.

We do play in 2 weeks. what did you expect. Any excuse for an arguement. Even something that is not really a threat to either club causes a nice oppertunity to have go with the semi only 2 weeks away.

Once we are in the new stadium there isn't any reason why we should not get a Grade A.

I'm amazed that Leeds can get a Grade A when the "away end" hasn't even a roof. Each of the other Grade A clubs
play under fully covered stadia. The criteria in this respect is crackers.

(a) They did. See the summing up in League Express this week of what the RFL said last time around.
(b) It most definitely has materialised. Unless that stadium with grass growing on its pitch is the stadium for another team.
(c) The two above suggest you were just guessing.

True.
Although a substantial ongoing support of the Lenagan family is mentioned in the accounts to see wigan through 2010/11 season.
it also says that additional loans from the family are necessary so the chances are he will re-structure the debt owed to his family.

However, this does not solve/disguise the ongoing trading losses of wigan even with your high support levels; whereas we can grow to reach profitability which = sustainability.

How can wigan trade their way out of continuing losses when you are going full pelt and having to borrow more and more from its owner?

How the fook have we managed that?



Don't forget though that Red Hall is full of pen pushers who will love dotting those 'i's and crossing those 't's and so we might only be 957 under the bar but Doggammit, no way will we get that Grade A!

I'm embarrassed at the pettiness of some of my fellow Saints fans.

As far as i'm concerned Saints have done well to get a B grade.
It shows that we are doing a lot of things right.

Saints themselves have said the time to truly judge them is once they are settled into the new stadium.

Therefore lets look forward to the next 3 year license period when hopefully we will have done enough to earn ourselves an A grade.

My own personal opinion why we never got an A is that its related to the following.

1. Community programme perhaps historically not as strong as other clubs. I think Saints have started to take this onboard, as ive noticed that in the programmes this year, they have a page or two devoted to their efforts to promote the club around Merseyside.

2. Low level of season ticket Sales. I believe we sold more season tickets this year at Widnes than in previous years. Now considering we only have about 5-6k season ticket holders now, then we may have dipped below the 5k level in recent seasons.

3. sub 9k gates at Widnes. While gates have been better than many fans were predicting. They are still about 20% lower than at KR. IMO it may be a tough ask in the depths of a recession getting the lost fans back. Many i fear will have found other interests to spend their dwindling leisure money on.

4. No stadium of our own, being forced to rent short term a ground out of our town.

You need to read it again then. You get graded on current facilities not on something that might be finished in the future. If you think that your new ground has materialised you need to go and consider how long it has taken Halifax to finish their main stand. Just because you start building something doesn't mean you are going to finish it - you can't play a game on it for a number of months yet unless you don't want any fans in attendance.

Lenegan was always going having to restructure the club's finances after the way Mo and Whelan ran it, hence the £2m loan you mentioned earlier (which was actually a loan from Whelan). We were due to turn a profit last year according to Lenegan at a fans forum and are now on the way to being sustainable going forward.

I do not have the detail of St Helens financial so can't comment, you clearly don't know Wigan's so it's best not to speculate.

This year's attendance don't count as the bid was done earlier in the season. It will have been the ground as the main issue, so it looks a forgone conclusion it will be an A grade for the club next time.

You are talking rubbish. We were awarded a Grade B last time as well, and we only had planning permission back then! The only tangible thing that has changed to the negative since last time is our attendance figures. We were averaging 11,500 for I think the final three years of our time at KR. We've fallen below the required 9000 for this season. Of course, you will note that I have inserted the word 'tangible'. Because very few fans will know the true state of the club's finances. So that could be a factor.

According to League Express when it set out the criteria this week it does count but at the lower figure of a 9000 average (the previous two seasons being 10,000 average).

I'm Backing Wigan/Leeds Andy to win this one!

Saintsfan will give her all to the extent of ignoring certain facts that don't suit the argument but in the end She will Succumb!

Can I ask what the hell you're talking about?

You got a grade B last time, you got a grade B this time?

Attendance criteria is based on 2008-2010. Your bid was done in March, how can this year's attendances be known then?

Jebus.

- Average weekly home crowds of at least 10,000 in either the [u[size=2002008, 2009 or 2010[/size[/u seasons, and an average home crowd of at least 9,000 in the other 2 seasons.

So they're going to base attendance figures on a season that isn't finished yet?

HTH.

I quote (League Express citing the RFL criteria):


Now, tell me, where in there does it say 2008, 2009 and 2010? The next licence is awarded from 2012 to 2014. 2011 is part of the first licence round, which began in 2009. Why would any season outside of this licence round be used to calculate whether a club is viable for the next licence round? We could go back decades if that were the case surely.

You were saying?

So you think they would use AVERAGE attendances from a season that isn't even finished. I suppose they didn't think anyone would be dumb enough to need it explaining to them and why it could cause potential problems. I'll give it a go and see if it finally hits home...................

Lets says a club still has to play their local derby at home this season and are just under the 10,000 threshold. What do you think might happen if they weren't allowed to count their highest gate of the season when other clubs have? Lets say that determined whether they got a franchise or not - you getting it yet?

[url=http://www.code13rugbyleague.com/2011/07/26/super-league-licensing-grading-criteria-and-assessments/Here's a link to help you understand the criteria[/url

You'll even notice that is uses 2008 for more than one thing because believe it or not this season isn't finished yet!

I hope to God you're not trying to teach maths or logic.

I think where you are falling down is that you quoting league express! Surely a teacher would be aware that many publications spout drivel, let alone LE!

You have obviously forgotten that I was responding to Rougues taking the p*ss out of Saints finances on OUR forum when clearly wigans finances are no better and are equally dependant on the support of its owner.

I think I know how to read a set of accounts and company returns.
Why not speculate? Its a free world.

Then why respond to my post with a load of stuff that had nothing to do with what I said? Maybe you should have said all that to Rouges?

If you know how to read a set of account you'll know to speculate based on incomplete info can mean you can get it completely wrong. As you have done.

League Express were quoting the RFL.

But that's the point, isn't it? What defines a Grade A club from the rest is that they don't have to rely upon occasional boosts from derby matches. They have the crowds in the bag automatically. Wigan and Leeds would get a minimum 10,000 every season without even trying. Saints most definitely would not. If we need to wait for our derby matches to get past the magical number then we aint a Grade A club, are we?

Saints Fan - sorry, but have to agree with Wigan / Leeds Andy here. The bids were submitted much earlier in the season, March time I think, when clubs would have had about 4 home games max. To base the season's average attendance on 4 out of 13 home games is ridiculous.

The stuff you quote from League Express states "the last 3 seasons". My reading of that (of course, it's open to interpretation) are the seasons 2008 - 2010. Those are the last 3 seasons - 2011 is the current, ongoing season.

A bit like the Championship clubs - they could only apply for a License based on a Grand Final appearance / Northern Rail cup win from the seasons 2008 - 2010 (the last 3 seasons). Leigh won the NRC this year, but couldn't apply for a license for 2012 - 2014.

What I think we all agree on is that when we move into the new stadium, as long as we return to at least KR crowd figures (and realistically, we should expect to exceed them), then we will be getting a A grade License next time.