Lomax is a fantastic defender, not sure where you are coming from here unless I've missed the point?

You have.

Care to elaborate then?

I slightly disagree with that due to that nowadays the scrum half generally defends at the centre position, meaning that player is away from doing much tackling. In doing that the scrum half is protected and while required to do the occassional bit of tackling he is able to focus most of his energy on leading the team attacking wise.

I think the forwards including the hooker set the defensive pattern. It's the centre of the field and it's always the starting point of any attacking move from the opposition. If the centre of the field moves up quick and gets into the faces of the pivots from the attacking team then there is more chance of any move breaking down. If you win the centre of the field then you have a good chance of winning the game, which is why a good set of forwards are a neccessity.

I see your point now, but I disagree.

In the modern game the defensive pattern in the of the field is set by the two Props, the Hooker and the Loose Forward. These players occupy the central channel and set themselves within it. Either side of them is where the Second Row defends, these set the pattern of the defensive channel out until the wingers who will then set how compact the defensive line is. The scrum half defends outside the Second Row and often outside the Centre. In the modern day game, the Scrum Half doesn't set the defensive line.

Lomax was one of our best defenders yesterday. And he has no problem organising his part of the line - he defends from the centre position. What we needed was a fullback who could organise the defence, and cover it too, but Wello was very poor yesterday. While we allowed them too much room overall on the pitch, our goal line defence was particularly poor. But if memory serves most of their tries came from within the sticks area and not where Lomax was defending.

I am sure Simmons actually stated this was his plan in an interview over the past few weeks.

Bingo! At last, someone on here who gets it...



Nobody's denying anyone's right to complain about the level of performances at the moment. Go complain all you want if you're not getting your money's worth - I'm not going at the moment so I can't comment in that regard.

The point is merely that raging doom and gloom about us being also-rans for the rest of the season due to a bit of dodgy early form is utter lunacy. There will be a flood of lemmings jumping off cliffs on these boards soon once we've lost a few games, all tearing at their clothes and wailing that our season is now over and we have nothing left to live for, and that the entire team needs to be sacked and replaced with 30 speedy wingers immediately etc. - that kind of reaction is utterly preposterous as it simply doesn't matter how we're performing now come the trophy shakeup. It just needs a little perspective, that's all...

Northampton I may disagree with you most of the time, but you do make your point entertainingly.
Most people like to comment on the game, me included and yesterday did come as a bit of a shocker to most, (even given recent years at Hull KR). There is a slight difference between the we need another winger discussion and concerns over the defence.

Personally I think it's totally fixable, but people (me included) do get worried when we have shipped in nearly as many points as 11th place and yet have not played a top 4 or even top 6 side. To me it's very Saints of old, even when we won stuff we could still make a hard game against a struggling Oldham or Workington, yet compete with the Likes of Leeds, Wigan and Widnes in their pomp.

Royce has openly said he has not had a pre-season full of games, instead every player has had a run out in the opening 3 games plus widnes.

He has also tried a few combos at half back. As far as the coach is concerned, these 3 games where not games we should have struggled in and so has been happy to rotate around. If he was not going to do it now, the only other option was to have more pre-season games, which the injured players would have missed and added to the length of the year. Or to try combos in more key games later in the year.

I'm sure he was not expecting a capitulation of the defensive line, but he must have a good idea now of how the new players fit in, or don't?

I'd expect baring injury the catalan game to be our best 17 out on the pitch (as now we need to build form towards easter), did not see the game against Hull KR, but from the Salford game and the accounts from KR, I'd be surprised if Flannery makes the starting 17. Would be equally surprised to see Makinson not playing. The question is where?

From what I've seen and heared alot of the bigger names are not cutting it at present, the question will be can Royce cut them all, without causing friction.

Makinson
Ade
Shenton
Wheeler
Foster
Lomax
Gaskell/Wheeler (if Gaskell is out)
LMS
Roby
Clough
Dixon
Sia
Wilkin

La franki
TP
Flanaghan
Wheeler/another back (if gaskell is out)

Drop Gardner for Hohaia and put Makinson on the wing and I'd go with that 17 as our strongest.

When you brought Wheeler on it should have been for Wellens, with Lance H, going to fullback.

I can live with that too.

I've only seen Lance once at FB and for me he was a bit too much running around but going nowhere, maybe he's been better in other matches I've not seen.

I think maybe in the 60s and 70s the scrumhalf organised the defence while playing in the sweeper postion but that's not the case now and no way is lomax at fault for the team not being able to tackle.

For what its worth it seemed fairly simple to me why we nearly lost yesterday. An inability to keep KR away from our line. We gave way too many penalties away, along with stupid errors all that did was give away field position. There isnt a team in the competition - let alone a big side like Hull KR - who are not going to score points against you given the amount of field position.

Cut out the errors and Hull KR never looked like scoring long distance points - we then score 30 points and its an easy win.

Yes the defence on our line - if improved - could still have taken us home but dont underestimate how well KR played when they were 20 m from our line, their regular half backs could have done no better and they have some big forwards who from that distance who will damage you.

So its not all doom and gloom, Foster missed 4 conversions - 2 of which hit the posts. We scored 7 tries to 6 and the penalty count was something like 9 -2 against us. We havent won there in the league for about 5 years.

Improvements to be made - certainly - the end of the world and our chances up in smoke for this year - not yet by a long chalk.

I think that's fair.

I noticed in the opening two games that we made some really poor individual errors - including giving away sloppy penalties and uncharacteristically dropping the ball. We just look like a side that's finding it's feet at the moment and the lack of pre-season games and rotation in the side means we haven't really found any rhythm yet. We've done well to remain unbeaten but I imagine our side will need to settle soon providing we don't pick up too many injuries as our fixtures become tougher.

I think it will settle somewhat now, barring injury. Royce wanted all to have a run out. That's been done so now he has seen them all and tried a few things, he can start to pick the style he wants.

I'm guessing the back on the bench is here to stay, so for me this is a role for a utility player not a winger. If meli is going to play and given his try scoring record that is more than likey, Wheeler / Wellens or Lance would fit perfectly into this and not have to spend all but 5 mins on the bench and could be brought on and off for various roles.

I wouldn't fancy wello as our sub that never comes on. What if we had to put him on in the centre or halfback!

There would be no need to have him at half back in my line up, he could do a job at centre but there are option there too, I'm not saying he would be back on the bench every week, just some weeks, it depends on our injury list. The weakest back line where he would be on the bench would be with Meli and Lance injured. even in this line up if you don't want him at centre there are options. If we lost any more backs, then Wellens would slot into FB.

Makinson
Ade
Shenton
Wheeler
Foster
Lomax
Gaskell

if you lose a centre, then Wellens goes to FB.
if you lose a half back, then wellens goes to FB, makinson to centre, Wheeler to half back.

The scrum-half has pretty much always been heavily involved with marshalling the defence (both Allan Langer and Andrew Johns were excellent defensive organisers). It's true that some are more vociferous than others, and, yes, duties tend to be shared these days between the loose-forward, hooker and sometimes full-back (who has a better view) - but [isomebody[/i must do it.

Conceding 30 odd easy points against modest opposition with a near full-strength side suggests poor organisation, leadership and/or lack of motivation. Not surprising given that Hohaia's hardly had enough time to learn his team-mates' names, Lomax isn't a scrum half and Wilkin - whilst many things - has never possessed the leadership skills of a Scully or a Joynt.

You could always buy Richie Mathers, by all accounts he never shuts up

I have never come across a defence organised by the scrum half in the modern game. The Full Back shouts people into gaps, the Wingers set how compact the line is and the front row and 13 keep the middle channel tight.

This is just nonsense. Tell me, precisely [iwhen[/i did this "modern game" in which the scrum half had zero input to the defence arrive? Three months ago? Allan Langer was regarded as one of the best defensive organisers in the business. Andrew Johns wasn't far behind him. Clearly you must never have seen Sean Long gesticulating wildly at his forwards to shunt left or right.

You're conflating the various tactical defensive set-ups the coach drills into the team (to suit various opponents) with the dynamic calling of plays by [isomeone[/i in lieu of rapidly changing on-the-field events. As any military strategist will tell you - no plan survives first contact. Faced with unfamiliar attacking plays from the opponent a team must adapt or get caned. Given that the coach isn't on the field to make immediate changes one player (usually the scrum half - if the NRL's tactical analyses are anything to go by) has the coach's authority to override any pattern if it is compromised.

So you never watched Allan Langer or Andrew Johns or Sean Long or Ben Hornby or Chris Sandow? Precisely WHAT do you think those guys are/were shouting about in the time immediately between the ref shouting "hold" and the ptb?

Jesting aside, Mathers for all his flaws was a major contributor in our improved defence, I think it's preferential to have your FB calling the shots if you're relying on one guy, but at Wire as most people know Briers does most of the shouting and organising at 6 with a defensive position at centre.
Briers was always a shouter but I'm sure he learned an awful lot from Alfie, I think though it's ideal to have 2, one in the line and the FB to iron out the gaps from behind.

That's good. But I didn't mention Lomax's individual defence.



I guess that's your theory. But Wellens' abilities to organise the defence aren't conditional upon his fitness/speed/age. Unless he had laryngitis and [icouldn't speak[/i the team would have received the same level of instruction they did during trophy-winning seasons (perhaps better given his greater experience).



That's good. But ...