But they also don't show that one week he is playing and not playing, then playing centre and then wing etc.

I think he's a decent player and at the moment would have him at centre over Turner, whilst Turner gets his head or what ever the issue is right.

I was worried about turner when he came out in week 2 and said we won't take the foot off the gas! Why would they of in week 2? I definitely feel there's been an element of believing his own press for turner...

Exactly what I've been saying when people quote Mose stats to me.

Stats don't show who's doing the hard yards etc. They can be very very misleading and I believe certain players play the system.

Coming in 3rd man when the tackle is complete isn't a tackle!

My favourite excuse for a player that always has decent stats is Wilkin. I've been saying since 2008 that he's not good enough and it was the likes of graham, KC, Roby, longy, scully, jammer etc that made him look good. Seems a few have finally realised he's just your avg run of the mill player that's had one good season since 2006.

I was always told he runs good lines lol

i have no massive beef with Wilkin as a lad, I approximate he puts a lot in, but when you're chasing titles, an underweight back row is not something of use.
People can quote his high tackle rate as a reason to play him all they want, but believe me, if Wilkin wasn't there to make that high tally, someone else would be, weather it be Jones, Flash, Wello or Walker - it's the easiest role in the team to fill.
The ball Playing 13 is not a thing of the past, but it only works if you have some one exceptional like S OL doing, which is why it's so common to see people playing a prop at 13.
Wilkin up with some good touches in a highlights reel, but his bread and butter go forward is well below par. You can state that his quasi playmaking role may affect his stats, but go and compare his stats to Westerman's (who's playing in a team that's really struggling) and they pale in comparison.
He's also one if the lads that's too bloody nice. Saddened will remind you of us getting knocked out of the playoffs by Wire - Westwood had been knocking 7 bells outer us, but when Wilkin caught him with a night shot, he practically chased after him to apologise. Now, that's fine if you're Apollo Perelini and you've spent the rest of the game hurting them legally, but that does not apply to JW.

For me, his standing in the squad is a problem if we want to make progress.
We should have flogged him to Salford when they started flashing the Kash.

Great post. JW was a jack of all trades in 2006, unfortunately he never pushed on to master any of them. He doesn't have the leadership of wello, the handling skills of a fully fledged ball handling lock, the leg drive of a true second row, and the worst kicking game of anyone at the club (every kick vs hudds went to hand not to ground - that was fine last year, but given we have Walsh showing us how it's done, it gets all the more disappointing) - of course his work rate is pointed at, but I'd definitely put him in the clone category, and wello, Flanaghan and even some of the youngsters (Thompson springs to mind) could fulfil that role, without feeling the need to takeover the halfbacks. I also find it troubling how whenever we hear rumours of discontent in the camp his name is usually involved.

I like JW and have always wanted him to push on and fulfil his potential of 10 years ago, but he never truly has - I'd swap him for westerman in a minute atm. Realistically, I'd rather wello took the 13 shirt, with sia, greenwood and Flanaghan/ Thompson (Manu when he's back) in the second row. Our halves seem settled now as well.

Wikin is a pivotal player and his role is not to do hard yards, when we don't have the ball he does a lot of hard work in defense.
Yes, he will have the odd quiet game, most of the time he handles the ball quite a lot so there is a risk also in the error count.
His job is to work alongside the halves, he has good footwork for a forward as a battering ram its just not his game.

Flanagan and Thompson are nowhere near Wilkins skill set, those two cant play scrum half and stand off in a crisis. The problem with Wilkin is just consistency which is a problem you get when playing in a utility role and other players are not doing there job.

Utility roles don't exist any more. If he'd of developed into a ball handling lock like scully, fine, if he'd of developed into a foot work orientated, line breaking second rower like Gilmour, fine, if he'd of developed into a workhorse second row capable of doing the hard yards like Bennett, fine (though a waste) - but what is Wilkins role on the rugby league field? Is he a lock? Is he a second row? Whilst Flanaghan and Thompson may be more limited in what they can do, they know their roles and stick to them, and make positive contributions to the team, consistently (and I'm no fan on Flanaghan).

I really like the idea of having wellens at lock, playing the traditional full back role of pushing through the middle supporting on the shoulders of the ball carrier 2/3 times a set, taking the ball up in a pinch and tackling anything that moves whilst lomax plays the "new" full back role as third pivot. But to do that, our back rowers need to do a more traditional job, which Wilkin doesn't fit.

Not big enough to play Backrow and not fast enough or clever enough to play 6. I'd have no problem in letting him go. Flash Is just as good as him in defence

Flash is better I defence as he hits harder and is harder to dominate.

I haven't seen the Hudds game yet, but from listening , is was obvious Wello contributed to the attack.
The above thought occurred to me.
When Rush took over from Riyce and we went bCk to basics, Wello ended up our top try scorer, making breaks and half breaks from sculking around the ruck and taking short balls and offloads.
By itself, could teams could manage it because they could go tight Round the middle, knowing thre was less hoist o. Out wide. If he did this from 13, however, we've still got the threat of Lomax out wide to keep the defence stretched, but out attack in the middle would be harder to contain.
In defence, he can be the workhorse and, S he's now labelled as the only guy who can give us the rocket we need, hopefully we'll look better as a team.
Well end can't effectively graft for yards , so that means you need the rest of your back rows to give you go forward drives - Wilkin is bottom of the pile for that. It may also clash with any 3 prop system that people like.

But we only ever went in one direction - to the left. We became predictable and dull and easy to defend against.

I loved the start of the season when we were mixing it up and showing some flair.

I've been thinking about the option of playing Wello at 13 and having a supporting full back role in attack and a grafting defence job and I think it could work with a lineup something like this (at current squad helath):


Mose
Roby
Richards
Soliola
LMS
Wellens

Thompson
Greenwood
Walker
Wilkin

Adding LMS to the second row effectively changes him to a position which I think will be better for him and beefs our pack up a bit in attack. I don't think there's room for both Wellens and Wilkin in the pack.

When all are fit:

Amor
Roby
Walmsley
Soliola
Manu
Wellens

Mose
Laffranchi
Thompson
LMS/Wilkin

But he does have ball handling skills and good footwork but nowhere to the extent of Scully and Gilmour. We can't ignore the fact that he is running second in the team for try assists and again second in the team for clean breaks.
Wilkin is very much involved in the second phase on our left hand side with a passing game, whilst Sia is working the right hand side with a power running game.
In my opinion his contribution is underestimated sometimes by fans on here, last year for instance we had no half backs up stepped Wilkin played an alien role and contributed to our climb up the table when we struggled to finish in the top 8. Wilkin is a utility player.

In my opinion Wilkins future replacement would be neither Flanagan or Thompson but...........Joe Greenwood

I posted before the hudds game that I would play wello 13. He's not the greatest and I prob wouldn't have had him playing this year but like I've said, he can't be any worse than other players that played 13 but wello will give us heart, passion and desire.

I'd rather wello play avg but play with heart and pride than have Lms play with no heart or passion.

I don't doubt Wilkins contribution. For the sake of fairness, he's top of missed tackles (by a long way) AND has made the most errors as well. But stats don't tell the whole story.

For me, as a sport were moving away from individual spectacular plays, and there's much more focus on players who can contribute to a structure. Stats don't show how often Wilkin strays away from the role he's supposed to be playing, which imo contributes to periods where we race into a lead, and then rest on our lorels - nor how many misreads he makes in defence (he was responsible for huddersfields first try by misreading the play) - he's been making some great breaks at the moment, but I believe others (greenwood) could be on the end of the passes and do so as well.

We can all be very grateful of his ability to put his hand up last year and play every position under the sun - it makes him a great squad player, it doesn't mean he should be a first choice second rower. A back up halfback/lock maybe.

Wilkin was exceptional for us last year. He really stood up and took on the halfback role and did a great job. If we didn't have Wilkin I don't know what we would have done!

He was my player of the year by miles last year.

That was last year. It's 2014 now and we have a proper scrum half who needs to be allowed to do his job, preferably with the same halfback partner from week to week, and that halfback partner should never be Wilkin.

I agree and basically that's my point!

He can't play in the halves as he's just not a out and out half at all (did terrific last year in the situation we had) and I don't think he's big or strong enough to play Backrow.

So for me, he's not good enough and that's been my opinion since 2007 and I took some stick for saying it. He gets thru some work in defence but he also misses a lot.

I'd go with Greenwood as first choice now and see how he goes. I liked joe last year but wasn't ready physically last year and Brown had him working on his strength in pre season and he's certainly gone bigger, stronger and had certainly improved. He's a runner and that's what we need.

Just watched the game back on TV. I'm going to change tact on Wilkin he is as good as Flanagan in defense and runs far better attacking lines and does get an offload away.

I think the issue is consistency. I've never seen Flanagan turn up and not put in a shift. But Wilkin does seem to pick and chose games and I do wonder if he has a finger in too many pies with the Union and TV and RL.

He was very very good on Friday, yet when I had been at the game I missed most of the shift he put in. Where as flanagan's hard hits stood out. I think there is a difference in style, but in terms of effectiveness they are fairly equal defensively for me. Whether they are equal week by week is another matter.

But a back row of Wilkin, Flanagan and Wellens is just not viable for me.

If Wellens must play to give that heart and soul to a team. Then we have to face up that only one of Wilkin and Flanagan and maybe Jones can make the back row, in a fully fit team with Manu and Sia.

Amor Roby Walmsley Wilkin Manu Wellens

bench

Mose, Sia, Laffranchi, Greenwood or Walker.

This allows Wilkin to play the tackling stint for a full 80 but that role must be defined. Sia and Manu rotating on and off the field; with Mose and Laffranchi swaping with Amor and Walmsley.

In the end some fan favourites can't play together.



edit.....

if he gets game time Savelio may take that last bench spot. but that is also assuming a fully fit squad., chances of that happening ????????????/

Agree with a lot of what you say. My problem on the whole is the highlighted bit, either Wilkins role is poorly defined by the coaching team, or he simply drifts into trying to play other roles during the course of a game. Leave the kicking to Walsh and Hohaia (and in a pinch lomax) focus on playing a back row role, running lines and tackling then I'd be happy for him to play the spot he has. I just don't have faith in him not to try and float into getting involved in shift plays though, and would rather sacrifice the quality he has for the sake of someone who can fulfil that role.

On top of that, greenwood, Savelio, walker and Thompson are all pushing for regular time now (or in the case of Savelio, should be), and when Manu returns, does Wilkin, with his tendency to drift, deserve a spot ahead of them? He has talent no doubt, but playing wellens in the manner I suggested doesn't leave room for Wilkin to also play an unconventional role. I just don't think our pack is big enough to support 2 players playing untraditional roles, and given we have the youngsters waiting in the wings, it's a case of either or for me, rather than both.

I'd like to see:
Amor Roby Walmsley
Soliola Greenwood
Wellens/Wilkin

Laffranchi Masoe Manu(or Savelio) LMS/Wilkin/Wellens(to interchange at lock)
Plenty of options, and gives us flexibility throughout a game.

We've missed Manu more than we expected, I'll be glad to see him back.

We sure have missed him for his skill of getting the ball out of the tackle and providing that to unpredictability. Back to the Wilkin debate I would suggest fans on here study Wilkins play in depth over a couple of games to show how important he is to the pattern of our attacking options.
Its going to be very difficult for Brown when we are at full strength to know what his best team is going to be especially the bench players.
I don't see Flanagan in the back 3 at all, his strengths are his tackling and a good passer of the ball so in that respect he could be cover or rotation for Roby.
Of the 4 youngsters in Greenwood, Sav, Thompson, Walker I would have them in that pecking order with Greenwood the pick of the bunch.
When Lomax returns we are still going to have the problem of when, where and how we are going to play Wellens.

I think your missing my point. I know that Wilkin contributes to our attacking structure, but that isn't the role of a second rower. If he was playing halfback, then it's great he's doing his job. Second rowers should be running lines off said creative players and cause confusion in defences - when he sticks to that he does very well, makes breaks and looks good. But, he doesn't stick to just that.

Greenwood is another who "runs good lines" so is comparable. He's no where near as accomplished as Wilkin yet (not saying he couldn't be in time) but his propensity to stick to the role he's given, not the kicking or the passing games means I'd take the decreased ability for the stability in our plays.

Wilkin just isn't good enough.