No we don't. You keep repeating that Amor is having "a dip in form" but he's not. Look at his stars and you see a strong performance even in defeat last night. Certainly no worse than other forwards. Amor does his job, providing solid tackling and usually requires 3 defenders to pull him down, tiring the defence. He also provides genuine aggression where Saints have often been lacking in that regard. This claim about his form has become a reflex, but I see no evidence to support it.

We have Amor, Walmsley, Savelio, Richards, Masoe, Thompson, Vea and LMS who can all play prop. That's easily comparable in quantity and quality to the prop rosters of Leeds, Wigan or Wire: 4 experienced international standard guys and some understudies.

The very effectiveness of this shows in the fact that we've not lost a forward battle all year. Even last night our forwards matched Leeds fairly comfortably. So getting yet another prop would be using scarce resources for marginal gains.

We certainly need an effective reserve hooker before we destroy Roby completely. Obviously Cunningham doesn't think Hohaia can do that job, so we need to fill that gap urgently. But IMO by far our greatest need is a genuine attacking threat in the back 5. Every one of Leeds' or Wigan's back five offers a greater threat than any of ours. What's more, both Wigan and Leeds had backs not playing who would still be the best threequarter/fb in our side : Hall, Charnley, Bowen, Briscoe would all be automatic picks for us too. The best I can say about our back five is that they'll get more chances now Wals is back, but I can't really picture any of them - even with Walsh - offering the same attacking threat as any of the Wigan or Leeds backs.

So no, we don't need another prop. It's probably the position in which we are strongest, along with second row. We need a hooker, and we need an attacking back.

Hang on a minute! I'm not bagging Amor at all! In fact I'm praising him as I said, he's having a little dip but works his socks off and never stops!

We DO need a prop. Richards is 19 and having a littke 2nd season syndrome which is to be expected at that age. Thompson is 19 and again we can't ask to much of him and Sav has struggled but had his best game last night. Those 3 young props could be very very good props but we can't ask to much of 19 year old lads!

That leaves us with Alex and mose. Big Alex Imo is the best prop so far this season in super league.

I'm not even going to waste my time on mose as he's just a complete waste of space.

Completly agree another prop would be a luxury we dont need. We're crying out for a international outside back. Imagine Watkins running onto them Walsh passes last night. Instead we have the likes of Flanagan and Jones killing our attacks as soon as they get the ball.

That makes it sound like you're living in the past.

His stats last night were ok. His stats against Hull were exceedingly poor.

He missed SEVEN tackles (by comparison Mose missed two). His total number of drives wasn't up to his usual standard either. He looks a bit short of weight. Maybe the club worked him hard in the off-season. Maybe he picked up a virus. Whatever - it has affected his form, somewhat.

I accept that all players have off games (quite a few had an off game last night). But there's a difference between a bad game and being permanently/temporarily off-form. I think Amor suffers slightly because he's always directly compared to Walmsley, who until last night was playing very well indeed, and also Walmsley's game I based around big carries and yardage which get the crowd up. But if you compare Amor's stats to the rest of the pack, then - Hull game excepted - I don't see that he's performing consistently worse. Indeed, on occasions like last night, he was, along with LMS, our standout forward.

Anyway, bottom line is that I disagree with St Pete - we don't need a prop. We have much higher priorities in other positions.

It's not just a prop we need but Imo as mose is waste of space and 3 of them are 19 so we need to help Alex out.

The thing about Amor is - he's been absolutely outstanding pretty much ever since he arrived. Aside from coming back from injury I've always considered him our stand-out prop. Above even Walmsley. I agree that's he's not playing badly. But he's not playing at his best, either.



I agree entirely. I mean, when you look at Wigan's front row stats against Leeds (where Mossop & Clubb didn't make ten carries put together in the entire match!), or Warrington's disintegration - not to mention Catalans (who I thought were the roughest lot we faced toward the end of last season) it's plain daft to think we need any more grunt than we already possess.

Indeed, once we shook off day-dreaming at the start of the second half last night we didn't seem to have any problems making easy yards against Leeds' pack.

Our problem is we don't have an awful lot of cover in the backs. A few injuries and we're scrambling around trying to patch holes. As I said earlier, we perhaps should have promoted one of the more promising juniors to a bench position at the beginning of the campaign. But we didn't. And there's nothing we can do about it now.

All this griping and moaning about "lacking pace" and "penetration" is pure garbage. For all his critics - Turner's been the league's most potent finisher this season. We know Percy has plenty of quality. I can't BELIEVE people are criticising Makinson. And Swift played an absolute blinder against Wigan's supposed "wonder backs" (who we squashed flat - again).

Couple this with the return of Walsh - who people seem to have forgotten about. And let's not forget this is a proven partnership with Burns.

There's so much to look forward to this season. And yet the same crop of whiners are throwing their hands up and surrendering before we've even got anywhere near our stride!

Pitiful. The lads deserve better than this sorry lot.

Your obsessed with other teams and their forwards. Your also obsessed with stats. I bet our packs stats isn't up there as the best pack in super league as you state regular.

Who has surrended ? I've not seen one post on here saying we can't win something. I think we can but also wouldn't suprise me if we crash and burn into nothing.

We've won one game in the last 5 games which isn't exactly setting the league on fire at the moment. The losses have been against a poor hull KR and hull team and agsinst two of the best in the comp which will always be 50/50 games.

The only "obsessed" individual here is you. It's not me running around with your name in my sig. It's not me pleading with other board admins to "ban him" (comical!). I did say we have the best pack in the league - both at the end of last season and the beginning of this. But it's YOU whose seemingly on a mission to keep reminding everyone that I said it. Just as it's YOU bashing Mose every third post.

As for being "obsessed" with other teams - we'll d'uh! You think Keiron Cunningham gives a fig about not being the best team in the world - providing he has the best team in SL?

As for stats - it's YOU who keeps linking to them every five minutes. Not me.

Like most delusional types you are in the habit of projecting your own failings onto others and them damning them for such. Couple this with not being very bright and it's a double-whammy of balderdash served up with fries and a coke.

I do think the doom and gloom is getting a little bit ahead of itself on here. Last night was disappointing and our defence was worryingly woeful, but it's also easy to forget that the interception tries at both ends of the first half were real killers and 12 point turn-arounds. Take one of them and we have a different game on our hands (we'd either be off to a great start or getting right back into it on the stroke of half time). Take them both and we very well could have won. Add on top of that the amount of field position we gifted them with unforced errors, and the penalty on half way that we forfeited into an attacking position for Leeds when Fleming made that mistake from the kick off.

I agree that Leeds looked a lot better than us in that first half, but to put it in perspective, it could have easily been very different. I'm confident we'll be in with a good shout of winning the title again at the end of the season, although Leeds will indeed take some stopping as their backline is ridiculous.

The thing is - far too many people have forgotten what a fit Luke Walsh gives us.

With Walsh up to full fitness and a little luck with injuries and there's nothing to worry about. Nothing.

Other teams have far, far bigger issues to contend with than us. Leeds are welcome to their success. But from experience I'd be wary about being the best team in the league [iat the wrong time of the competition.[/i

Mugwump, why do you have to revert to personal insults? There's been a few references today to what you perceive to be a lack of intelligence with other posters. You're coming across as snobby, mate.

In my experience the council of fools is all the more dangerous the more of them there are.

If that makes me a "snob" - fine. I can live with it.

This is a public message board - not a pacifists convention. If you make a demonstrably stupid contribution don't wail if people call such out for what it is.

Take a rest and get some sleep.

A stupid contribution or just a differing opinion? There's loads of posts I don't agree with on here, but I would never take a cheap swipe at their intellect just to undermine their point. It's snobby, which I know you're not concerned about but I'll also add that it's not very dignified either.

Quality

No point overreacting to last night. We weren't at the races and Leeds pulled away through a series of poor (from our pov)/oppprtunistic tries. It happens sometimes and last night was one of those nights.

We'll be fine and I still fancy us to defend our title constant reshuffles and playing players out of position will catch up with you eventually and we're taking our medicine.

On the plus side we may see a Saints side with Walsh and percy starting next week which goes a long way to addressing many of the woes stated on this forum since the game finished last night.

Indeed, typical mid season madness reaction to a resounding defeat. Leeds look a better side than us at the moment, I don't have any problem saying that. Their backs are utterly superb, potentially one of the best that have ever played in Super League as a unit as bar McGuire they've got years left in them, certainly up there in contention:

1 - Hardaker, best fullback in SL, even when Sammy Boy returns as he can defend and Sammy cannot
2 - Hall with Handley as backup
3 - Watkins, best strike player in SL
4 - Moon, up there with the best overseas centres to play in SL. Not Jamie Lyon class, but a step up on most who've played SL
5 - Briscoe with Watkins moving there and Ablett to centre as cover, which loses Leeds very little
6 - Sutcliffe, looks a certain future international. They've replaced Sinfield and more with this kid
7 - McGuire, looked astonishingly good against us. Virtually unstoppable all night when he ran at the ruck and passed behind himself to one of the many runners.

To have that backline in this competition, a competition where standards have fallen each and every year since it began is remarkable. Their pack is relatively poor but they play to their strengths and will be very difficult to stop this year. Are we at that level? No, not currently. Under KC we look a bit lost, not really having a style or a noticeable consistency to our approach. We're more aggressive than last season and are getting numbers into the tackle, but the line speed is awful, we're missing tackles at a record-breaking rate and we're making so many unforced individual errors with the ball that it's hard to see what we're attempting to do as it's very rare we complete a set at the moment. Could we beat Leeds? Yes, we could, the pack is capable of laying a platform for the likes of Walsh to exploit, but KC has plenty to work on to get us up to the required level.

It's another transitional season as well, people forget that because of the GF win last season. We weren't the best side in SL last season, we just did a remarkable job of pulling it off against the odds.

I disagree that our pack is poor. Granted Saints have the best pack when fully fit but the Leeds one is getting a bit underestimated I feel. Peacock is obviously still the one everybody looks at and he's still performing better than most props in the competition. However Cuthbertson is having a great season, as is Aiton at hooker who I think has been the best 9 in the league so far this year (he won player of the month just recently for the whole of SL). Ablett hasn't quite shone so far this year but in form, whilst not International class, he's one of the top 2nd rowers in the competition. Add to it Stevie Ward who is still going under the radar but I reckon you'll start hearing more and more about at this rate.....the lad is top tackler in the league (Houghton would pass him TBF if Hull wasn't in Cup action this week) and since he's been able to bulk up in pre-season he's transformed. He isn't hitting the headlines like others but he's been a massive part of our strong start to the season. I know it's still early days and a lot can and will happen but already Cuthbertson, Aiton and Ward must be strong early front runners for the SL Team of the Year in their respective positions.

I also agree that there's nothing to worry about for Saints. On the day the teams at the top could all beat each other, and given the shortened playoff system of 2 weeks and just a semi and final then whichever 4 teams make the playoffs any could hit their best form for 2 weeks and win it.

The individual errors aren't something new either, I remember a long period last year when we couldn't keep hold of the ball as well! Didn't we go a run of about 6 or 7 games where we coughed up posession either directly from kickoff or on the first tackle? There's a long time to turn it around!

You guys have absolutely nothing to worry about.
You will be there or thereabouts come the business end of the season.
Once you get Walsh back fit again he and Burns will keep you at the races.
Think you might be a three quarter or two short of a top team but you can't have everything.

We Leeds should also be up there providing we start using more of our squad such as Walters, Robbie Ward and Mulhern otherwise we will be burnt out by then.

You're right. I'm not concerned.

I thought you were self confined to a deck chair reading war and peace. Welcome Back.

Haha, I've noticed. You may as well just s**t in your hand and clap. That said, the world would be a boring place without you Mugwump.