www.sthelensstar.co.uk/sport/sai ... vis_Burns/ Some nice comments from Luke Walsh with regards to playing alongside Burns. Sounds like those two are good mates which will only add to their on-field relationship. The article also states Hohaia is staying which is good news as well I think. 1.Lomax 6.Burns 7.Walsh 9.Roby 14.Hohaia

www.sthelensstar.co.uk/sport/sai ... vis_Burns/ Some nice comments from Luke Walsh with regards to playing alongside Burns. Sounds like those two are good mates which will only add to their on-field relationship. The article also states Hohaia is staying which is good news as well I think. 1.Lomax 6.Burns 7.Walsh 9.Roby 14.Hohaia

Indeed.

I think Burns could turn into a real crowd pleaser. Everyone loves a tryer.

Also good news on Lance, I think. He's rounded his game well so he'll slot in alongside Walsh or Burns (when t'other's injured) in a much more successful manner to when he arrived. He's also fairly sparky on the field and good to have around, even if its just to spell Robes.

I agree. Even just a 25 minute spell for Roby every week would help. Roby is a machine and go on all night without it affecting his work-rate too much but a little breather either side of half time would increase his effectiveness I reckon.

Hohaia could also then slot in at 1,6 or 7 during a game should we pick up any knocks.

Not sure what it would mean for Wellens and his place in the 17 though. We couldn't carry have Wellens AND Hohaia on the bench.

I'm excited for next year. Another prop, in the mould of Gibbs, would make us favourites IMO.

We need to call it a day on Wello.
We'd be better starting to getting Swift to fill in at #1
We're well covered in the halves.
He's so far down the pecking order in terms of a forward its untrue.

If Turner goes back to centre (meaning Jones will primarily be back row), we sign a prop and stick with LMS in the 2nd row, then Wilkin, Flash and Wello are all looking like they're surplus to requirements.

I agree on Wellens but I still think Wilkin has a lot to offer and shouldn't be disregarded just yet. If Soliola, Manu, Laffranchi, Wellens, Wlikin and Flanagan all left then it would a lot of pressure on people like Greenwood and Savelio to step up and play far more minutes than they have this season.

The jury is out on Flanagan still for me. Some weeks he looks decidedly average and then he goes all Jonathan Thurston-esque on us last week.

I disagree, you still need a good strong squad mixed with youth and experience especially if you want to challenge on all 3 fronts. A top 4 spot is even more crucial next season.

I imagine most looked at our squad at the start of the year and wondered where Flanagan would fit in but he's played the majority of our games in the last 3 or 4 months. As a back up option he's decent to have.

Wellens - well he's like marmite on here. Some love his selection, some hate it. The coaching staff clearly love having him around so I imagine he will play a utility role in the squad again.

Wilkin is another that gets some unnecessary stick for me. He has some up and down games at times but is one of the most adaptable players we have. He can play in the back row and halves with no problem, he could probably cover hooker too if needed. He is experienced and has some leadership qualities, that the squad as a whole lacks. I think he'll slot into the back row alongside LMS & Vea next season.

I'm no Wilkin hater, I especially appreciate him playing out of position as he has done in order to benefit the team. His work rate shows he always plays with 100% for the Saints.

However, I generally think he's too easily physically dominated as a forward. He does put shift in to get his tackle count high, but I need more than that from a high earner (which I presume he is). Jones can do that and generally offers a lot more going forward (t'other week aside), Flash can get his tackle count up but hits a lot harder, Anthony Walker can tackle like a champ, but hasn't been selected in god know how long.

At the end of the day, I perhaps feel Wilkin as a back rower embodies Saints failings of recent years - lots of talent and qualities to talk about, but at the end of the day, not quite tough enough to make them work.

If Flash is good value, then fair enough, but would[i he[/i be happy being outside the starting 17?

I'm really not sure on Josh Jones. He seems to have stagnated a bit this season and I'm not really sure if he's a back rower or Centre? I think with the development of Thompson and the potential of Savelio (and Greenwood too), he could find it tough in the next few years to get ahead of them. Like Flash, he is an adaptable player though and given Percival's record with injuries, will probably play a fair bit in the Centre.

In the case of Flash, his situation hasn't really changed from this year, he's a squad player that if we were full strength wouldn't get into our strongest side. But in a long season, his durability and work ethic would be useful.

I think its important to have one backrower who can really stack up the tackles. The big guys don't tend to fall into this catorgory, although LMS has always been able to make a decent count.
I like Jones, more as a centre, but I think he's a capable back row and offers more going forward than other lighter weight guys.

I've drafted a possible 25 man squad, in positions, assuming we will bring in another good prop before our recruitment is done. Interestingly there is no place in the 17 for either Wellens or Wilkin in my squad. Turner plays at Loose as I like what he brings to the position and his big weakness in defensive positioning is negated in that position. One thing is for sure, we've got outstanding depth and options, specifically in the forwards.

1. Jonny Lomax
2. Tommy Makinson
3. Mark Percival
4. Josh Jones
5. Adam Swift

6. Travis Burns
7. Luke Walsh

8. Kyle Amor
9. James Roby
10. Alex Walmsley
11. Atelea Vea
12. LMS
13. Jordan Turner

14. Lance Hohaia
15. Mose Masoe
16. New Prop
17. Luke Thompson

18. Paul Wellens
19. Jon Wilkin
20. Mark Flanagan
21. Joe Greenwood
22. Greg Richards
23. Andre Savelio
24. Matty Dawson
25. Richard Beaumont

No way can Turner play loose. He's not playing loose now, he's actually playing 6. We don't need him anywhere the middle of the field next year with burns and Walsh there and also Wilkin.

Stick Turner back in centre and let him, jones and Percy fight it out.

You're probably right, but I just see something there even if it is only small potential. I'd certainly like to try it and see how it goes but it may not workout in the long term as he may fall flat on his face in that position.

He's actually kicked pretty well to be fair and he's got a massive boot on him.

What does Wilkin bring to the pack that turner doesn't?

He can point very well.

Also he can sneer at the Ref , deputise for LMS as the team penalty machine, laugh at his own knock ons
and overuse the term "Elite Sports" in any and all TV interviews of which there are too many.

I'd say he has a higher workrate and effectiveness in defence

Offers less carrying the ball, similar passing/kicking game

Experience. Mountains of defence. Organisation. Passion. Aggression.


Turner brings a better kicking game and ....er.....and......let me think.....oh, nothing else.

Experience? Laffranchi has that, but doesn't seem to count for much.

Defensive work? Yeah, Wilkin comfortably takes the crown. But then Flanaghan trumps him.

Orgaqnisation? I'd say Turner is doing a pretty decent job at the moment on his own. Wilkin has been doing the makeshift leader thing for longer so probably edges it, but I wouldn't say there's much between them on that front. Either way, they'll be 4th runners for this, behind Burns Walsh and Roby so hardly a big contributing factor.

Passion and aggression? ... It's a long time since I heard those words to describe Wilkin. And Turner, to be fair. Not sure one has significantly more than the other, neither are going to rip up trees on the matter.

As for what Turner brings over Wilkin: speed, backing up, ability to offload and eye for the gap. If Lomax isn't going to be the support runner that Wellens was, mold Turner into it instead. Wilkin couldn't of scored the try that Turner did vs Castleford for example. Imo of course.

I fully expect Wilkin to be our lock next year, rightly or wrongly. But Turner hasn't been as bad as you claim. In fact he's been quite good.

Where was he when the going got tough against wolves?

He was good when we put a cricket score on cas but that's it.


Why move a average centre that struggles to defend into the pack to play 13 ?

Same argument for Wilkin at hull Kr? Both have looked poor when we get caned.

Because I still think he's better than the incumbant?

Wilkin is a forward and Turner isn't. I'd play any if the kids in the pack before turner. He's basically playing 6 now so surely having burns, Walsh and turner wouldn't work and would leave us a forward down

So its Turner back to centre with Jones challenging for that position as well. My preference is to stay with Turner at centre he's learned a few more adaptive skills and his defence has improved. Jones although good in defence is very limited in attack and suffers from inconsistent decision making.

Turner has had a lot to deal with this season with a battle for individual form and having to play other positional roles, I dont think you can "cherry pick" his performance against Warrington or Catalans or Hull KR as every single player in the team put in shocking performances in these games.

I'm not singling Turner out but the discussion is actually about him