[size=85Posted this on redvee, but thought i'd also post it here to get different peoples point of view.[/size

Just thought i'd post this to maybe get a few other peoples opinions on this.

Are we now the Superleagues nearly men? We can beat most teams in the league (except for a few mediocre performances), but we aren't coming up to scratch against teams like Wigan, Warrington, and now Huddersfield.

So with the loss of a few key players have we replaced Warrington as the team that can on its day perform well, but struggles to mix it with the big boys?

If the new signings we get in the close season for next season aren't up to scratch I can see us being out of it for a good few seasons.

Any opinions?

yes,

but hang on a minute, it will all come good once you dont have to play in Widnes...

We've have indeed lost out narrowly to Wigan twice and been well beaten once. We lost to Wire in the midst of Eastmondgate with the squad in a bit of disarray. We lost to Hudds with half a team.

The last couple of games against the pies we've had 5 or 6 missing that would be in the first choice 17. Perry/Clough/Moore in particular would have added a lot to our beaten pack at the weekend and young Makinson made the sort of errors that Ade hadn't made all season.

Leon Pryce is arguably our best player (he certainly was for large sections of last season) and has barely played all year.

I'm far from giving up the season - we came across a team that played good, conservative rugby with a strong kicking game in filthy conditions and we weren't up to matching it, but all is not lost by any means. If we beat Wire at the weekend I'm sure the players will all be world beaters again in the eyes of the post-derby pessimists.

Personally, I think we look in very good shape indeed going into the new stadium next season, and not too shabby for the rest of this season.

It's an interesting time for the club. I think we've somehow managed to hang onto the coat tails of the good teams during our transition phase. We've not done what Bradford and Wigan did and fallen so far from our perch that it would take years to recover from, but I think the rebuilding work that has been done has been very average. Far too much reliance on overhyped young players who are never going to turn us into a champion side again. Playing at Widnes and not having Leon Pryce hasn't helped, but then again it's not looking like we'll have him next season either.

To realistically be challenging next season we need a fullback, a winger, a centre, two props and a back rower. We aren't going to sign any of them I don't think. Although we're battled valliantly against the injuries this season, it's only highlighted just how weak our squad is. We've not managed to put out a strong bench all season. There aren't enough senior players at the club and it will only get worse next season as our one man pack is gone. Replace his robotic 150m and 30 tackles stint with a prop who'll do 50m and 15 tackles like most do and it's not hard to see us slipping another couple of places down the league.

I think we need to look at Wigan as a guide to how we should move forward. Individually they are not a great side. Bar Tomkins there really isn't a great deal of show stopping individual quality, Warrington and Huddersfield have far more of that. But they are a great team, 110% aggression and effort and tactical discipline. We've always gone for classy play and trying to out attack the opposition, but modern day rugby league and the salary cap have left that as an impossible task and we just dont have the quality anymore. As of next season the only really 5* players we will have will be Roby and possibly Laffranchi if he adapts well. Gone are the days of us having 8 or 9 star players.

It's a bit of a worry as to who makes the squad development decisions at Saints. Whoever it is isn't doing a great job. The youth system is also a big problem, it's producing talented enough players, but they're all sparrow legged runts. Look at Charnley as an example of the average Wigan player. His arms are the size of our junior back rower's legs. The days of us getting to finals every year are gone IMO, I just hope the lean period doesn't turn into a Warrington-esque lean period.

Saddened in negative-post shock!!!

For me the answer is a definite NO.

We've had to encounter a lot of instability this year with a neutral ground, injuries etc. If we are the new Wire we would get beat 80-0 this Friday and would have been beaten 75-0 by Wigan last Friday.

I think Superleague is mediorce this season, with all the strife we have had this season we are still only 2 wins off top spot. Saints 2005/2006 would wipe the floor with these existing Wigan, Wire and Huddersfield teams. These 3 teams have gradually improved where Leeds and Saints in transition have dropped back. I think next season there is 10 players around the 30 years mark at Warrington, so although they have had a reasonable 2 good seasons they could go in decline whilst Saints future could be upwards where they belong.

It's all right though isn't it?

Anybody who doesn't think TP is a "star" player is clearly wrong, especially if he thinks Laffranchi is better.

Double post

Alright I guess he is. So Laffranchi isn't better than TP then? I read in the Aussie press about how Laffranchi was one of the NRL's top 5 back row forwards when he signed for Saints.

We lost badly on Friday and I came away bemoaning the fact that we have failed to beat all the teams above us so far this season and perhaps this was indicitive of our true satus in the league.

However, I think Wigan beat us because they turned up for a derby match and we didn't. They did everything harder and faster, playing like a team possesed and we did not. We looked nervous.
Wigan didn't have to reply on Sam Tomkins scoring any sensational tries. They went through simple motions and had a good, probing kicking game. That's all they needed.
They hit the ball up harder.
They made sure they landed on their front more often for a good play the ball.
They held up the PTB better.
The line speed was better and they tackled more agrressively.
We looked like a rabbit in the headlights in repsonse.
Maybe Wigan are coached to play at a higher intensity, maybe they're fitter, maybe they wanted it more or maybe we simply don't have anything left in the tank after our exertions of battling on through the injury crisis we had, but I think we'd lost that game before we even crossed the whitewash. I don't beleive they have better players, but I didn't last year, however they opitimise a qualilty TEAM.

I think (hope) he can. However, we had a very slow start, which could be blamed on numerous factors such as the eastmond debarcle and royce losing his father and having to return home early on, which means that we are perhaps a couple of months behind where we could have been.
The improvement since the awful loss to Quins has been staggering and we have played some impressive rugby, but we're going to take some fine tuning to catch up with the three heavyweights.
We've comprehensively seen of Leeds twice, so we can't be a bad team, just not quite a top team at the moment.

How so? He comes from a different school of coaching than those two. If Wests are anything to go by then I prefer their style of play, so long as we can ensure better defence. Not Wigan style defence; just better defence.

To be the new Wire we would be alot further down the league. You could say we are the new Wigan. Wigan spent a few years bobbing under the top teams and then making some decent runs in the playoff's to semi's etc.

I don't think we are at the level of Wigan, Wire or Huddersfield for week in week out performances. However I do think that on our day we can match them. Hence the playoff's not being too insummoutable.

(If you read further you will find me to be the slight polar opposite of saddened)

I don't think there is a need to buy in anyone else. For a starter, I don't think there is anyone else left to buy. Most of the decent players are already tied down and we are full on the overseas status. Someone like Manu from Hull would be good, but is such a move realistic?

I think the team maybe in need of a mid season reinvigeration and although not our best player (IMHO) Leon pryce and too some extent Clough maybe the players to do this for us. Clough will give us some bulk and much needed grunt, he is a player who does not tend to stop before the defensive line to see if he can shimmy around them or pass the ball to a2nd rower to get smashed. (Something there was alot of on Friday).

Leon will give a break to one of the half backs probably Gaskell who I reckon is just about 12 months ahead of where he should be. The experience will be good for him, but you can't expect top class every match from a teenager. What he has done so far is give us a long kicking game which we have missed for many a year.

I have fallen in with Saddened on the fullback idea, we do need to try someone else but a new purchase would not be nessasary IMO. Nathan Ashe, Leon Pryce or Lance O'h would all be suitable in that role. And it would give us another quality back rower in Wellens. Result all round.

I don't think Royce comes from the same coaching philosophy as Brown and Maggy at Wigan. To say there is only one way to play in the NRL is a bit narrow. There is more than the one coaching style and if we are all just going to follow the one style the game will not develop. You need to counter your opponents not just copy them.

Given the disruption so far this year if you told me we would be 4th, in the CC draw, and only 4 points off the lead I'd have snapped your hand off. Now we are in this position sure it would be nice to get top, but I think Wigan pretty much have that. I can't see them losing 3 times in the last 10 games whilst we win all our last 9 games. However, I can see us putting a run together from now to the end of the season. Lets not forget even last year the Wire finished below us and still did not make the GF. So league wise, there is still alot of season to go.


But yes a win against Wire is sorely needed, otherwise the stats voodoo dolls will come out saying well you haven't beaten a top side all year so it can't be done, in the playoffs or CC.

For fans this weekend is crucial, for Royce and the team, I'm not so sure.

I think it IS crucial for the team - to go into the cup and play-offs not having beaten a decent side all season is not good for the confidence. We looked a team low on confidence on Friday, we were hesitant and panicky.

Winning big games breeds composure and confidence, losing big games breeds losing more big games.

To be fair, we didn't look a whole lot different against Bradford the week before. I think it was more to do with Roby being shut down and us being unable to switch to a plan B. Because we don't have one. Add to that that our forwards didn't function and we - for the second week running - couldn't catch a cold, and we were generally screwed. All that has to change before Friday or it will be a question of by how many because Wire will be able to give us the runaround in a way Wigan can't.

Well Royce had better come up with something quick then. He has stated that he doesn't want SL to be about quick play-the-balls, but we seem to depend on them more than ever in the big games.

But if we're not as good as those teams is losing most of them not what should be happening?

There is a long list of teams that have beaten Wigan/Wire/Hudds this season that aren't as strong as Saints.

They're not supermen and we are well capable of beating them, but we need to arrive with a heck of a lot more fire in our belly than we had on Friday.

Very little chance of that, I should think. Our halves are rookies, just learning the job. It takes time to coach new approaches into an experienced team, never mind an ever-changing one with rookie halfbacks. We need the off season for that. I'm sure he will address just those kinds of things in the off season. He's seen for himself now what happens when Wigan are on the charge. We can capitulate. Maybe I'm underestimating both Simmons and the team, but I just think it is unlikely with the weekly rounds to consider that he will have the opportunity to do that.

you need to go through a lot more pain before you are the new, 'old wires'...A LOT MORE!

Are you a Warrington supporter by any chance?

Not necessarily.

Wigan under Noble for instance could usually rise to the big games (yourselves excepted sadly) and beat them, but never looked like putting 3 months worth of consistent performances in.

No-one would doubt for a second that Leeds were a much better team than us in those years, yet the head-to-heads didn't reflect that at all. For all the negativity here, Saints are only 3 points off top spot - I'd have taken that at any point in the 5 years prior to Maguire coming in.

Come of it fellas, have you seen the type of rugby we play these days?

You might have been the new Wire in about 2006.



The only thing you've got in common with us is being plastic scousers who hate Wigan.