in Richies defence, JJB is more similar to Tomkins in style than Ellis.

Just without the speed or offload, or eye for a gap, or ability to pass whilst running. The lad can tackle though

I think thats inaccurate. He's probably our fastest forward, and faster than many of our backs.

In the loss at Hull KR, where Watkins scores from the chip over, and wins the footrace. Its JJB who keeps up with him all the way. Hardly a slouch, considering that was on 78 mins, and he'd probably got through a bucket load of work beforehand

I agree, he's also one of our best & fastest kick chasers.

What more work? It wasn't carries, tackles or marker tackles. What more work?
How did you get from "half a metre more average to per carry" (and put your hands out in front of your 50cm apart to remind yourself just how small 50 cm is) to "making more yards on a single carry"


Yep, came with faults and didn't correct them.


Why do you think that? If you're going to discount tries, assists, marker tackles, tackles and metres, and say making an extra 50 cm average carry is more important, it might be a good idea to have some reasoning.



What makes you think it's poorer work.
Of course Ellis will make less errors and give less penalties, he does less. Extrapalate that all the way - you and I haven't made a single error or given up a single penalty in SL in the last 10 years. Smokey and Richie, for England! Along with Ian Kirke!





Tomkins was 18 years old in 2005. Even so, in half the number of games he still grabbed the same number of tries as Ellis did in a full season at the height of his career. Made less errors and gave less penalties that year too.


You'll need to find some new ammo on this. Maybe there are some NRL stats that can demonstrate his work rate and attacking prowess? In repeatedly highlighting Ellis's lack of work rate and attacking ability compred to the younger generation, you're really putting him down.

I wouldn't call JJB slow and steady. He brings a fair amount of energy to the team, and has a greater work rate than Ellis had.

Disagree, Ellis any day.

Still, hope JJB makes me eat my words in a couple of hours

They dont need to make that extra half a metre. thats half a metre, every carry. Not in isolation, every single carry. Ellis has already done it. Ellis' work in that respect can counter somebody else, taking another tackle in making fewer metres. But thats generally not what happened. We had JJB making not dissimilar metres to Tomkins, and Ellis making more metres every single carry.

because it is much more dependant on the team than it is the individual. Ellis played, in his leeds career inside Chev Walker, Clinton Toopi and Carl Ablett. Leeds have for a long time focused on the opposite side of the field. We simply didnt have that much attacking work done down that side.

ok lets extrapolate, Tomkins gave away, in 2010, 28 more penalties than Ellis did in 2005. Only Le'strange in the entire league gave away 28 penalties in the entire season. Tomkins gave away almost 6 times the penalties Ellis did if we extrapolate then Tomkins would have needed to make about 3000 tackles in the season. He made 750. For 50% extra tackles you get 600% extra penalties.

Again you misunderstood, I didnt compare Ellis in 2005 to Tomkins 2005, but Ellis in 2005 to Tomkins in 2010.

The stats say otherwise. TBF though, Ellis was typically stuck in the right channel, whilst JJB has typically played with a bit more licence to roam.

Leaning on those extra 20 inches Ellis got on his average YPC is getting a bit silly now. Especially that you now seem to think that translates to Ellis making those extra 50 cm on every carry. Have a think about how average work




So it's not just me that think Ellis wasn't a great attacking threat then. Our coaches at the club have also consistently gameplanned to not attack via Ellis.




Perhaps that's just down to Wigan's style of play, the same way Ellis's lack of tackles, metres, tries, assists, marker tackles has been.
BTW, whilst you're looking year by year at Ellis's stats to pick out the year that helps your case, take a look at the missed tackle stats. It's awful for a player who was supposed to have that as a strength of his game. Just flicking through, he looks to miss more every year than Tomkins did last year, despite attempting significantly less tackles.


Take a look at those offload numbers for Ellis in 2003, 2004, 2006, 2007 and 2008.

I reckon he did. Unrewarded MOM again but at least his coach picked him up in the post match interview.

I agree JJB is looking back to his very best in recent matches. Ablett too was brilliant today.....but McShane was def MOM.

todays game puts all this debate to bed, the 2 best SR are JJB and KA and when (if) Ali ever gets fit he would be 3rd choice off the bench. Sinny at LF the rest have to hope for scraps of game time. Where young Clarkson will fit in don't know but he is certainly doing a good job and pushing the main men. By the way McShane by far the MOM got the forwards going well up the middle

Gaz Ellis has been the best backrower in the nrl and voted players player and best player at the tigers every year he has been there! Which is massive when you have benji who is the golden boot winner and the likes of farah and toquri in the side.

The aussies media and people like Gould say he's as good as they have seen! Which says a lot.

Tomkin has been hot and cold in a Wigan team that has had one very good season.

Did you watch the game last night! What did you think to his defensive positioning! Lucky they were ruled 2 forward passes. Pfffft!

McShane was great, no arguments, but JJB was everywhere. When his stats are produced I think you will see he made an amazing amount of metres.

Agreed. JJB also put in another high tackle count and scored a try.

I think McShane did as well. When he went from dummy half he made a big chunk every time, and often offloaded as well. McSHane, Ablett and JJB were all superb but McShane setting the tone in that first set and setting up two crucial tries edged it for me.

I actually said to my stepson he would be MOM ...but then was seduced by McShanes' try, passes and running from dummy half



JJB has really raised his game brilliantly on both defence and attack in recent matches...he's on a fine run of form....as is Ablett for similar reasons.

How good is it that so many performed well enough to even have a discussion about who should be MOM?

Must admit, would've been nice for our hooker to get MOM. It so rarely happens these days......

followed by

That's because most ts don't see the obvious magnificent contribution made by our imperious antipodean first choice incumbent

I will be interested to see whether McShane get's the 'Try Assist' credit he deserves for the Watkins and first of Hall's tries.

Opta usually ignore passes from the dummy half (example Jones-Buchanan for Senior's 2nd V Crusaders last Monday) but take a step or two before passing and you're back in with a chance (Kirke try.)

McShane provided the final pass for three of Leeds' tries, he could get anything between 0 and 3 Assists from Opta.

Above goes to show why stats are misleading. 3 quality passes and might not get the credit he deserves. For me mcshane had good game but Jjb was awesome as was ablett. Early in the game ablett produced great
leg drive to make
meters and did some good chasing of kicks