What your stats obviously didnt show were wingers pushing him off & their 7/9 running round him like he was a traffice cone.
Also he shot the line at least twice & ran straight past the ball carrier no agenda no Withens just facts.
Ive already pointed out how awful Thompson was/is.
Stats are numbers on paper & not always accurate plus they dont psint anywhere near the full picture.
Dwyer was head & shoulders above everyone other than possibly Walker anyone who was there would say so.

Personally I think Walker was the best player on the pitch by a distance with Dwyer 2nd, having said that it was Dwyers impact tgat started us scoring, Cameron Smith also was fantastic off the bench.

Agreed re-Cam Smith he has to be getting more games in 2019 imo much better BR than Ferres Walters & imo will have more impact than retaining Delaney Ablett or Jjb.

I thought he had a great game off the bench against Salford too. I really hope he has a big breakout season next year, he's got huge potential.

Cam Smith seems to be starting to fullfill his massive potential, the timing couldnt be better with the state of our backrow, they should give him a start at 13 on friday and let him play big minutes.

His involvments he had in the last two trys yday were pure class, on the run he made seconds before his own try, there was a good line ran, really good footwork and a lovely freeing of the arm, looking for an offload, with fax players draped all over him, real quality.

A reality check - look who he was playing against and the point in the game when these things happened. He needs the opportunity against top sides to see how good he really is - to date he hasn't shown or had the opportunity to show how good he is against the better sides.

The reality is he along with Dwyer were brought on to influence the game and did so when the team was huffing and puffing at best.
Of course harder tests are to come but at the very least his positive performance should give him more chances to play more minutes against better sides.

You are so vague and emotional and obviously exaggerate things.

eg: You say "wingers pushing him off" JJB missed two tackles so was that one for each winger and none for the rest?

Stats are not just numbers on paper. They are a record of the facts of the player's performances and you chose to again have a pop at one of the players with the most effect performance in the job he is asked to do ie: tackle, carry the ball up and make metres. That you regularly fail to credit him with his efforts means you are missing what is actually happening or look you at matches with a preconceived bias.

Dwyer despite his 4 missed tackles was obviously the game changer and Smith had an effective 20 minutes when Halifax had run out of gas.

So I agree that stats do not tell the full story. But they do give sufficient information to question people with an overcritical agenda who only look for faults in certain players and overlook the same or worse faults in others.

but having not seen the game I wonder how you can have an opinion, let alone argue with someone who was there. obviously marks not the only one with a so called agenda

I never understand this too. The exact same thing with the Salford and Widnes game too.

Hopefully you are correct - he needs better opposition to stretch him

So now its my over critical agenda not my lack of Coaching acumen


If you were at the game you'd have seen exactly what i & others saw.
Just to add no-one else who attended have posted that my review of Jjbs performance or the Team in general was neither emotional or over critical.
I take each match & individual performances on its merits so lets not try & dress it up as anything but that.
Spreadsheets offer very few facts & are inaccurate on a regular basis Jjb missed more than 2 tackles that is a fact whether you believe it or not is completely irrellevant you weren't there that's a fact.

If I had been at the game I would have seen that JJB was making plenty of tackles, his share of carries and metres. Something you failed to see or chose not to report.

Over many years I have disagreed with your critical and too often judgemental assessments of players and rugby management matters to the extent that I take your opinions with a large inch of salt. So the fact that you were at the game does not automatically mean your reporting is accurate. That your fellow back slapping pals like Tad and Gotcha agree with you rather encourage me in my opinion.

That you cannot accept the official stats, which all clubs use for KPIs, rather proves my point and it is no coincidence that your dislike of stats is because they rarely back up your opinion, indeed more often than not they challenge your opinion.

You love to dish out your critical comments which is your right, but you can't take it when I challenge your criticisms and you get most upset when I back up the challenge with facts.

Can we y’know... get back to discussing the game and less about each other’s differing personal approaches to games.

Let’s leave the personalities to one side please chaps.

Ta.

Well said. But having stayed of this site for a long time, due to numptys. Does any of the above have any form of coach qualifications?

We all have opinions as fans. But let’s not get too engrossed and over bearing.

All I can say is that reading too much into how well anyone plays against what are a bunch of dreadful sides in the Middle 8s is a bit silly. If someone looks rubbish against that quality its really worrying, but we've all seen plenty of players who look good against poor teams only to vanish when faced with decent opposition.

What you would have seen is exactly what i & the other travelling fans saw.
A Club great coming towards the end of a distinguished career is thst better?
He was done in D by the attack more than twice as were others but they were rotated before him.
Also anyone that was there will agree the influence Dwyer had on that game along with Cam Smith.
Jjb grafted he just isnt up to it for long enough anymore but of course your numbers dont show that so it never happened then.

I wasn't at the game so, unlike you, I haven't given an opinion, let alone make myself look stupid by argueing with people who were there. you stick to your spreadsheets,like a comfort blanket for pensioners i guess

personal vendettas should really be kept on PMs .There is a difference between debate and this sort of thing

There are tackles that rattle the carrier and stop them dead and tackles that eventually drag them down after they've made 15m. To simply focus on the number made is pretty simplistic IMO. Maybe someone can be ar*ed to look whether metres made by the opposition has increased this year which would surely be a better indication of the fitness and effectiveness of those making the tackles.

Vendttas? Thats way ott.

But I didn't simply focus on the number of tackles did I?

I had responded to JJB being picked out for special criticism by Rhino-Mark who said among other things that "he was gassed after 15 minutes" and in the interests of balance I pointed out the following stats:

JJB was our Top Tackler (31)
Only Cuthbo and Dwyer made more metres (of the forwards) than JJB (114m, average 8.77m per carry)
Only Cuthbo made more carries (of the forwards) than JJB
JJB made No Errors
JJB missed 2 tackles which was half the number of missed tackles of Crosby, Dwyer, Thompson or Myler who all missed 4

Now I did not need to have been at the game to see that JJB cannot have been the worst of our forwards with these stats and his actual overall performance was not consistent with the critical remarks made by RM or that he remained "gassed after 15 minutes"

Furthermore Sinfield chose to keep him on for the first 61 minutes (gassed for 46 of them!) until Halifax had shot their bolt and we were winning 24-6. This again rather shows he did not share RM's critical assessment.

Now if you are saying that for most of JJB's 31 tackles he was dragged for 15m each time then RM may have been right. But if so where were the other defenders? But even then how do you explain his carries and metres made if he was so bad?

Also the radio commentary made a point of praising JJB's quick reaction tackle which prevented a breakaway after Cuthbertson's pass had gone astray.

I never even commented that JJB had a good game because I did not see the game. I merely challenged the selection of JJB for being chosen for special criticism over other players.

So on a fans forum is it not allowed to challenge a critical report of a player which may be an unfair assessment where the stats and coaches interchanges do not confirm the criticism because I was not there?

Spectators see the game not just from different angles and viewpoints but from different prejudices because we are human. So some will agree with you and some will take the opposite view. It happens at most matches.

Without being there Dwyer's stats also show him to be the game changer and they also Smith made a good impact, albeit that his 22 minutes were against a part time side who by the were shot.

The stats I quote are not my numbers but they are the official record of the players individual performance and if you study them they give a good indication of work rate per minute played too. eg: JJB (over 61 minutes) and Dwyer (over 40 minutes) had the same work rate per minute. So this proves JJB grafted for his full stint.

Whilst it may not be the case on this occasion, sometimes players tackle counts are higher because they are targeted by opposition coaches and playmakers.

I’m not passing comment on this particular game, just making a general observation on why some players may seem to do more work than others.