I'm still not quite sure why that wasn't given as a try, his momentum hadn't stopped and it was the tackler moving him - had that been at the sideline and he'd been taken in to touch there'd have been no penalty and no complaints - the idea that the instant the ball carrying arm touches the turf the tackle is complete is a nonsense and made that call an American Football one to me.

And if Tansey was offside then it should have been at least a penalty.

Good performance. Similar tactics to the away game at Saints (2 offloads all game) but with a more controlled kicking game in the second half and an ability to at least occasionally move play to the right. Cas pushed the ball a lot more and made a lot more errors.

Sutcliffe looking more and more comfortable and Peacock, Leuluai and Singleton winning the wrestle against a strong Cas pack.

On the negatives McGuire, without playing badly, made a lot of wrong decisions and Ablett, though his numbers were good, was a bit below par. Would get him through the Wigan game then give him a rest - think he's been our only mainline player who hasn't been rotated this season? Kylie will get at least a warning letter for his shoulder charge (fantastic hit) on Millington. Huby and Clark very good for Cas as usual.

The only penalties that can be given in a free play are for foul play hence that is why it went back for a drop out not a penalty.
I can understand why the try wasn't given even though Tansey is turning McGuire it looked to me that he was also propelling himself forward. If that was against Leeds i would have been very unhappy if a try was given

There's no way it was a double movement, McGuire didn't make a "second effort", he was flipped over the line by Tansey. I suppose you could say the tackle had been completed when the ball-carrying arm hit the floor, but then you should rule a play-the-ball to Leeds on that spot.

Not sure how offside rule works in those circumstances. Tansey is offside if he touches the ball from in front of Dixon, but don't think he's offside if he touches the opposition player who's picked the ball up?

If it is ruled a double movement then they cannot go back to the play of the ball they have to go back to the original knock on offence as that is what generated the free play. Otherwise for every double movement it would go back to a play of the ball not be a penalty to the defence. As it was a free play the only way it could be changed to a penalty for either side is for foul play.

Yes, but I didn't think it was a double movement

Can't be offside from your own ingoal area. Since the error occurred in the in goal, no players are offside

You can't be offside in your own in goal area.
I think it would have been offside if Tansey had picked the ball up as he was not in the in goal area and therefore in front of Dixon in the field of play.

I'm fairly sure that's not quite true.
The team that gave away the free play (in this case it's Cas from a knock on) can still be penalised for technical infringements like offside/obstruction etc because that penalty would be the greater advantage to the non-offending team (in this case Leeds).
The team benefitting from the free play (in this case Leeds following a Cas knock-on) cannot be penalised for a technical offence, but can be for foul play.

For instance if following a Cas knock-on a Leeds player had kicked the ball forwards and another Leeds player was offside from that kick then Leeds wouldn't concede a penalty, the free play would be cancelled and the ball would go back to a scrum to Leeds for a Cas knock-on.
If following a Cas knock on Leeds pick the ball up and run with it and a Leeds player leads with the elbow then it would be a penalty to Cas regardless of the free play, because the foul play overrides the free play.

Cas, however, can still be penalised for any offence, be it technical or foul play. Otherwise it would be in Cas' interests to commit a technical offence to take the ball back to a scrum rather than allowing Leeds free play.


I do think it was a double movement from McGuire though, but if Tansey was offside from the knock on then it should have been a penalty to Leeds.

Quote ="RhinoDav"You can't be offside in your own in goal area. I think it would have been offside if Tansey had picked the ball up as he was not in the in goal area and therefore in front of Dixon in the field of play.'" www.therfl.co.uk/the-rfl/rules/o ... 14_offside Quote ="the rules" When off side 1. A player is off side except when he is in his own ingoal if the ball touches, is touched, held or kicked, by one of his own team behind him. '" Now I'm not so sure, since he wasn't in his own ingoal, Dixon certainly was in goal when he knocked on, if Tansey was in the ingoal whilst that happened (I don't know I haven't watched a replay) then it's fine

Quote ="RhinoDav"You can't be offside in your own in goal area. I think it would have been offside if Tansey had picked the ball up as he was not in the in goal area and therefore in front of Dixon in the field of play.'" www.therfl.co.uk/the-rfl/rules/o ... 14_offside Quote ="the rules" When off side 1. A player is off side except when he is in his own ingoal if the ball touches, is touched, held or kicked, by one of his own team behind him. '" Now I'm not so sure, since he wasn't in his own ingoal, Dixon certainly was in goal when he knocked on, if Tansey was in the ingoal whilst that happened (I don't know I haven't watched a replay) then it's fine

Tansey wasn't ingoal he was chugging back, hence getting back in time to swat McGuire.

Yes.



another said "he looked unfit last night."

You even posted "I thought Delaney was poor at the match last night," an admission of poor judgement which you only qualified that after reading his impressive stats.

Actually what I said was at the match he looked poor, but on seeing the stats his performance was incredible, which shows that stats can be viewed separately.

You made your comment after seeing the stats. Quite easy to do that one. Don't comment until the stats show something. I had seen the stats and still commented, and said it in a way to defend Delaney from the only post to question him. I would bet most who viewed the game would not say the stats match what they were seeing.

And as others have said, he did look poor and unfit during the match. It just would appear when you see that it clouds the judgement on other areas. You know a bit like you not seeing what game BJB really had last night, with regards kicks.

I think Delaney always does that, as others have said. I think it's more a symptom of the intensity he puts into his work.

I thought (I like the bloodbath's term here, so I'm nicking it) it was a very Delaney performance. The guy is never spectacular, rarely puts in an "MoM performance" but is an absolute workaholic. He's a workhorse. It's an under-valued role but totally central to any successful team.

He's there to do a specific job. Last night he did that specific job very well, in my opinion. Those looking for a game-breaking, stellar performance from him will remain unsatisfied for a long time to come. Those looking for him to be near the top of the tackle count and putting his hand up for the toughest, most unglamorous carries and still making yards will remain very pleased with his efforts. Fans are fickle creatures. I bet his team mates absolutely love having him in the team.

That was me and I still stand by it

I also noted that I am a big fan of Delaney and I was judging his game last night by the very high standard he has performed to since he joined the club

Thought is was a try also. The ball carrying arm can hit the deck before you score - examples all the time of players sliding over under their own momentum or that of a tackler while being tackled to score tries. Tackle was in process and McGuire's momentum (aided by the tackler) carried him over.

Unless Tansey is freakishly strong and propelled McGuire over the line while lying on the ground, there was an awful lot of McGuire effort in that movement. He certainly picked up some of that "momentum" after he had rolled over. In my house we obey the laws of thermodynamics. Second effort. No try.

I think there is no arguing with this, but it does highlight a point.

I have no idea who was at the ground or not at the ground, but I do think TV gives a completely different view to actual match.

At the game, as Soprano said, every time Delaney was in something he was bent over and hands on knees. He wasn't running as often as he normally does. And to be fair in his second spell when Cas were on their feet and he had a rest, two runs were each 15/20 metres a piece. So adjusting for those two the previous 8 carries would have being something like 5 metres per carry. On top of this you really didn't notice him in the tackle as often as his stats show.

However, all that said, the stats don't lie I presume, they display an incredible effort.

On the contrary Delaney has OFTEN put in a MoM performance because of what he brings to the table. I have never expected him to produce something spectacular ( is that how you judge every MoM contender? ).
I for one do not 'undervalue' him and I am generally a big fan of his exactly because of his workload. If anyone is going to potentially fill Peacock's boots at prop then it is he.
I simply stated at the moment he "looks" jaded and not at his best. If the statistics show otherwise then I hold my hand up and would need to look again. His workload normally stands out for me and maybe it is more of an indication that all of the forwards are getting 'stuck in'.
I am a big Delaney fan, but it is maybe time to give him a relatively easier game for a few matches from the bench. I am also keen to see how Stevie Ward goes with an extended run at LF in the same way McDermott is very successfully easing Sutcliffe into the responsibilities at SO.

You made your comment after seeing the stats too and admitted that your opinion at the match was wrong. I thought during the game that Delaney was putting in a real big effort and it was that big effort that made him look understandably tired. He may have looked poor to you but that opinion has been proved to be a wrong one. If anyone didn't look fit it was Bailey.

As Watkins said BJB had a real good game. If you want to be critical of handling mistake in difficult conditions then you would start with the 3 that Hardaker made followed by the 2 that Briscoe made in addition to slack marking for the Dixon try. BJB made zero handling errors and recovered the high kick at the second attempt. He was also on hand with good anticipation and positioning on several other occassions and took his turn in taking the ball in.

Well your first paragraph is irrelevant when you read your second one. Because if you think BJB did not make any handling errors then you clearly did not watch the match.

There is a difference between errors and knock-ons.

I agree Briscoe had a relative 'mare' but he never seems to play well on the left on the occasions he has being selected there... As I stated elsewhere that is puzzling since he spent most of his Hull career there. BJB may have earned his place on the right for the magic weekend, but the thing is for me (perhaps unfairly) he never instils confidence in any defensive situation and gives me the jitters. He is also pretty feeble at taking the ball in which is a real contrast to Hall and Briscoe when fighting back upfield.

I am usually in the TV camp these days (distance plus toddler care). You do get a different view (I was at every game for many years). Some incidents you see more clearly on TV, but a lot of stuff about the shape of the game and things in back-play and around the fringes are lost. I read these forums to fill that in.

With regard to Delaney's early carries, I noticed (partly because I was looking for it given some previous threads) that in the early exchanges he was mainly carrying the ball into the thick of heavy traffic. Exept for JP, who carries just about everywhere and is Superman, it's noticeable this year that this is a job done mainly by the backs for a couple of tackles and then largely by Kylie and Delaney. It's a danger, IMO, of the stats in that they don't take account of the places and situations those yards are made. Kylie probably never makes big yards, but he always makes hard yards, which means some of the quicker players don't have to thud the ball into 4 tacklers up the middle.

Tackle-wise, I do think you get a better idea on TV (because of the benefits of zoom) who is doing what in 2 or 3 man tackles. Delaney becomes very noticeable then. He's also very dynamic after contact, driving people back, wrestling them onto their backs. That's all seriously anaerobic stuff and it's little wonder he's slow to get to his feet on occasions.

Incredible effort is what he's all about.

We can only state our opinions and mine are quite different that yours it would seem. I rate Delaney, BJB and our coach (including their contributions last night)

I also rate them, and yes including the coach this year which I have admitted. I just comment on what I see at the time.