You say Gareth states thing for banter. Without putting words in his mouth I actually think he knows you spout enormous amounts of rubbish (amongst the odd occasional valid point) and therefore pulls you up on it, in a fairly light hearted way from time to time! I'm not sure I have the time or inclination to find your old posts but I may have a look later on!



2011 - Webb, Bish, Ablett, Hardaker, Hall, Sinfield, McGuire, Leuluai, Buderus, Peacock, JJB, Delaney, Clarkson

Burrow, Bailey, Kirke, Lauitiiti

2012 - Hardaker, Bish, Watkins, Ablett, Hall, SInfield, McGuire, Leuluai, Burrow, Peacock, JJB, Delaney, Bailey

Lunt, Kirke, Griffin, Ward

I only see the promotion of Ward and the loss of Webb as positive changes from 2011, unless you think Griffin was an upgrade on Lauitiiti or Lunt for Buderus?

I'm pretty sure the progression of Hardaker Bish, Watkins, Ward and others was part of the long term plan anyway.

So you seem quite happy with the way the squad has progressed then but follow that up with...



Now I'm not McDermott's biggest fan but having him speak knowledgeably and passionately about the game and the club as a whole he is integral to the development of certain aspects of the club. He is the coach who first moved Delaney to the back row, introduced Bish and Watkins as a partnership, got the best out of Danny Buderus, moved Burrow to an interchange hooker - all these things have been a vital part of our success.

He has introduced Ward and Singleton and Sutcliffe (and don't say it was all due to injuries) as his involvement in the matchday squad happened way before that. We are a bit of good luck away from challenging for top spot this year, and despite being mullered by Huddersfield every time we meet it has been a fairly positive season.



Without looking I'm not sure but I reckon your argument focused on Sinfield, Burrow and McGuire and older forwards such as Peacock, JJB and Leuluai. Oh, and I think you were also critical when Delaney signed his new three year deal




He played about 10 minutes in 3 or 4 games IIRC. It showed me the club thought he wasn't really up to the rigours of SL rugby, and certainly didn't see him being ready to defend at that level. Clearly his progression hasn't happened as they hoped. Clearly, that's all because he didn't go on loan and get run over every week at a level he isn't ready for though.

You see, you make things up as you go along. Where did I mention an upgrade? I said dramatic changes, there was dramatic changes. You previously said I had been proved wrong because I "allegedly" said =#FF0000this squad was finished in 2010. We no longer have that squad of 2010, we have a different one.




You see, I will dissagree with all of that until the cows come home. It is completely naive posting, I expected better of you. Got the best out of Buderus? introduced Bish and Watkins as a partnership? WTF, Buderus was the best hooker in the world and every tom dick and harry (except Gareth

) knew how he should have been used. Watkins was already in the side, and Bishop had already been played and was planned for before McDermott arrived.

I have already stated I will give him credit if he does it this year with the changes that have taken place. Let's see what happens. But for me he gets no credit with the previous years teams.




If you can find a post from me where I have said anything close to Sinfield or Peacock finished, then I will gladly walk away now. You simply won't, and you are making things up again. Those two players have been absolutely fundamental to Leeds success, and continuance to challenge. Without those it is clear in my mind we would not be anywhere close. Never said McGuire finished either, although I did say about three years ago that the partership of McGuire and Burrow could not go beyond 2013 (funny how we are now up to that year). I have also critisized JJB, think he is an over rated player by posters on here, and far too much over used by the team. That said, I have also stated this season, that other than Peacock this year he would be my player of the year. Delaney, yes, I did question his new three year deal, not the player, but I didn't see the need for his deal and still don't.


You need to look at some knew material mate, because you don't seem to be able to back up your statements here.

I would have thought any player coming into a team cold is going to struggle with a new defensive pattern - hence the reason why teams spend so much time in training on defensive drills.

Ward was originally in the team as a half back - as such he was defending out wide a slightly easier task I would suggest.

To be fair, there is no doubt McDermott got the best out of Buderus during his Leeds career.

2009. Broken leg in July, patchy form up to that point whilst being spelled with Diskin. Team looked much better with 1 hooker (Diskin) after the injury (before the Buderus fanboys get a hard on I am not saying Diskin was better) and didn't lose another game.

2010. Another up and down season culminating in a woeful Cup Final display (he was not alone).

2011. Superb season, very consistent and an immense presence in the playoffs and the Grand Final.

You agree you said the squad in 2010 was worrying. You highlighted 2011 and 12 and the changes that were made and now seem to think we'll do OK or that aren't surprised we have won things. I am merely point out that the bulk of the squad were the same and that some of the changes actually made us weaker.



Buderus had nowhere near the impact he should have done during the time he was here. Trying to accommodate him and Diskin was an unfortunate problem presented to Bluey. McDermott utilised him how he was best used and then had the foresight to use Burrow as a change of pace which worked wonders. Delaney was still first choice centre in many peoples eyes at the start of 2011. Brian Mac utilised him at second row to allow 2 young British lads to form a great partnership on the right - give him some credit. His knowledge of the game is impressive and his passion for the club is too. While you may not agree with every tactical decision he makes, he is a lot better than he gets credit for on here. Hell, Tony Smith used to drive me insane with some of his selections.



This is just plain stupid. He has more in two years than most coaches do in a lifetime, with a set of players you said wouldn't be able to compete. Any changes to that squad you said would be in decline, he has had some say over.



I was working from memory. The general gist of your posts at the time though was that this group of players needed breaking up. JJB is the heartbeat of this side in many ways and has been an integral part of its success.

Brett Delaney was our best player bar Peacock until his injury this year. The man is an absolute machine. If you don't see the merits of retaining him for longer then I'm afraid I can't help you.



I aren't trailing through your 10,000 plus posts I'm afraid. You know you predicted Leeds' decline and so do I!

And yet of course I have never said those players wouldn't be able to compete, yet you can not show different.




He's the heartbeat of the side, as you put it, because he is over used and his work rate his extremely good. I have never put the guy down on work rate, it's ability where I have questioned. And I don't believe that other players could not have come in and replaced him and we would still have had the same effect. But I do strongly believe that other than Peacock this year he has been our best player




No Andy, you need to show that one, if you want to state it. I have already said what I posted back then, and yes I did mention decline. But what I said, is unless the academy is sorted out, with Poching moved, and we make changes to the squad, it will go backwards.

Unless you are sitting there with eyes closed, and eyes shut, you will see we have done exactly that, changed the academy set up and made changes to the squad.

I should also point out there to put a bit of balance to this. When McDermott was announced I was quite excited by his recruitment. I was in a very small minority on here along with Juan Cornetto who constantly defended him in his first year, and felt he needed time. It's what has happened since then that has changed my mind, and what I thought he would bring is nothing of the sort.

The correlation is obvious - next year a large number of U19s released by SL clubs will be playing in the championship, these will not be the better youngsters, it doesn't take a massive leap of faith to suggest the better U19s would have no issue playing in the championship.

As I said before the vast majority of this golden generation managed to progress to the first team without the need of periods at other clubs? What has changed?

How often do the likes of Brisbane actually see the championship especially the lower quality teams, W55ARE is a huge supporter of the championship so his comments need to judged on that basis.

Nothing has changed. The only way of players proving themselves of Super League ability is to get Super League game time.

Look at all the star players of the last 10 years, nearly all made their debuts for their respective clubs first team, and in the majority they all debuted young. You could name on one hand the players who took the other route.

I love to know these massive positive changes you think we've made which have changed your opinion.

Since 2010 to last years Grand Final we have seen the introduction of Hardaker in place of Webb and the development of Ward and to a lesser extent Clarkson. We also lost Lauitiiti, Buderus, Eastwood, Donald and Lee Smith and replaced them from within - or with players who have struggled to make an impact such as Griffin and Moore.

You said earlier the progression of Watkins & Bish was obvious so therefore when you were being a doom and gloom merchant you knew of this.

Our academy has always produced enough players to supplement the strong squad we have. SO please tell me which changes have completely changed your opinion?

With the exception of Hardaker, until Moon this year, I struggle to see anyone we have signed or developed who has drastically changed anything

If you are talking about "star" players that is fine.

But just looking at Leeds, and we aren't the best at getting people out on loan always players such as Scruton, Burgess, Ablett (I think), BJB all had productive loan spells before they played any kind of regular game in the first team.

Back in 2009/2010, are academy was a bit of a joke. Rogues Gallery gets a lot of stick on here, for stating it at the time. It was a joke, the focus had been completely taken off it, despite it been fundamental to our success previously. We were even making signings just to play in our academy.

We completely changed that, the club changed it. Changes were made and the focus was again to get the foundations right, and a proper pathway through the club. We have fantastic under 15's, under 16,s, and our current under 19's are from those changes that were made.

That is a massive positive step for the future of this club.

With regards the squad. It wasn't just about the quality of player brought in, where changes were made. Ali was finished, or at least it appeared that way (always injured, and not producing his previous form), they had to get rid there and free up space. In fairness I doubt we would have ever seen his Wakefield form at Leeds again in the time since he has been there. Webb was progressively each season getting worse, and had to be replaced. Senior was finished and needed replacing, he was finished in reality 18 months before it was forced on him. We have since sorted the centres out and have the most exciting backline we have probably ever seen. Burrow/McGuire partership was faltering, it needed changing.

And all of them had that loan at Super League sides.

That is obviously the ideal place for them to be. I just don't think the option was open for Hood otherwise he would have been sent somewhere.

I think Burrow and McGuire would still have done OK. The issue for me was accommodating Sinfield as a third pivot. It weakened our pack and go forward early on which is why in big matches I have always been in favour of Sinfield starting the game in the halves. Agreed on Webb and Senior, although with Keith I don't think he was quite as bad all the time as people think. Ali could have probably gone round again but there was a massive unknown and a big wedge of cap I imagine so I have no issues with the club's call there.

Hasn't Barrie Mac overseen the Academy structure throughout the whole time you are speaking of? Could it not just be that for a couple of year the talent pool wasn't as strong as it had been previously? I ask from a position of ignorance having seen very little Academy rugby over the last few years.

You see, we can have mature, adult discussions. You still aren't always right though - which was your claim yesterday

Actually, just for clarification, I said this

Will they be first team regulars at 19/20 years old? Or will they need to develop yet further before they become key players at those clubs. I've seen countless players standout at junior level who haven't made it to top pro level, or even any pro level in some cases.
Whilst you say a "large number" take a look at the number that don't actually make it.

When Northampton FC were looking at creating an RL club, one of our suggestions we proposed to them was basically to take advantage of the change in age groups to grab some of the large number of 20 year olds who couldn't play U19s and put them together in a team that could stay together a good few years. We knew such a team wasn't going to be at all competitive in it's early years.

The "golden generation" were just that - a very rare occurence. Pretty much all were eased in very gradually, and all had problems with ability and/or health and fitness in those early days.

I don't need to see any championship games to know a team full of half-decent semi-pro open age players would flatten ANY team composed solely of teenagers, no matter how talented. I used to watch Bramley a fair bit back in the day, when they were generally dire. I'd have backed them with any money against Leeds' best U19 sides. Their forwards would have monstered the Colts. Nothing at all has changed since then to make any difference.

I DO watch the U20s here, and there have been lots of complaints about how that competition isn't developing kids well enough (there are also definitely problems with NSW development and reserve grade here). I also watch reserve grade and regularly attend Qld Cup games. I'd bet any money that any Qld Cup side would slaughter even a combined 'best of' NRL U20s team simply because they all include a fair smattering of hardened pros - particularly in the pack.

In order to sort the wheat from the chaff Leeds and other clubs have to look at loan options for 19 year olds they want to keep an eye on as we have no reserve grade (a big mistake IMO, but we are where we are). SL loans will always be limited in number because every team should theoretically have a squad of 20+ at the start of the year. That means every year clubs will need to find a place for at least a couple of squad players in the Championship, or simply punt almost every 19 year old not quite ready for first team on a regular basis (the vast majority of them, regardless of what our youth-obsessed fans think).

That situation is only going to get worse as SL reduces the number of teams. Right now we've got probably 4 teams bad enough to consider almost anybody on loan. If that's cut by 2, the realistic number of potential loan places is halved.

IMO without an actual reserve competition, loans to the Championship will become the only viable route to first grade for the vast majority of outstanding teenagers at top clubs.

Quite. And they were nurtured.

Take McGuire and Burrow. Their introduction was much more gradual than Sutcliffe's has been. There's been no Andrew Dunneman to help Sutcluiff ease his way into a 1st team half back over a couple of years.

That's an open invitation for people to start counting (but not me, I can't be bothered).


One ...

As I have said before, feel free to check how many 1st team games Kevin Sinfield played in the 18 months or so after his first team debut.

Obviously this limited game time hindered him and the club and resulted in his career never taking off and the club failing to enjoy the success he could have brought. Sad really. Wasted talent.

Sinfield was 16. How did his "nurturing" pan out in comparison to Singleton or indeed Hood? That 19 months you talk of included two preseasons also. It was also at a time when the team had a lot of highly paid individuals that were picked because of that reason.

You do realize your argument is what I was arguing for? Sinfield is the perfect model to follow.

Well thanks, I will do.

He made 2 appeances from the bench in 1997.
He made another 2 from the bench in 1998
He made 9 starts and 12 from the bench in 1999
He made 19 Starts and 7 from the bench in 2000 9famously omitted from that years Cup Final)
It was 2001 he became what you might describe as a regular (32 starts and 1 bench appearance)

So, you're arguing introduce them very, very gradually and five seasons after their debut make them a regular if they're up to it?

That is how Kevin was introduced.

There is a good point here actually. Looking across the league, how many 16 year olds get a debut now? Things have changed across the sport since our golden generation came through.

In broad terms, I think Bradley Singleton can have a very long Leeds career, and there's little or no sense in rushing him into week-in, week-out senior grade matches. He's starting to look like a good Super League player who could be in our pack for a long time. The comparison may be that if he fulfills that promise nad plays 7 or 8 seasons (or more) in Leeds' first team then fretting because his first long run in the side came 5 or 6 months after you thought it should will seem pretty irrelevant.

In Hood's case I suspect (and history may make a fool of me here) that he will go on to have a Championship or maybe lower levels of SL career that will reveal that he is a decent player at that level but that comparisons with Kevin Sinfield are, indeed, meaningless. If he goes on to achieve great things then I'll happily hold my hands up and say I was wrong. But I've heard the desperate doom and gloom of an academy player leaving many, many times on these forums and elsewhere, and I can count on the fingers of one hand (quite easily) the number of times you could come close to even suggesting it has come back to bite us.

It is also, I believe, the case that young players will always mature physically at different rates, and that some positions (like prop) will always demand a slightly greater physical maturity than others.

There are no conclusive answers available to either of us here, but I don't think the Kevin Sinfield example does any great harm to my argument that it isn't worth rushing very promising kids into the first team if you are planning a long-term career for them.

It seems to me Singleton is following Sinfield's career path. 1 appearance in his debut year. 1 the year after. a dozen or so this year. Of course, he's no Sinfield and he's a forward so his development should be a little slower but they are, more or less, similar.

Sutcliffe might have waited a year or two longer but he's packed more in this season at 18 than Kevin did between his debut and 18 years of age.