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| Quote ="oldladyrhino"As usual the comments on here are of mixed accuracy etc. Yes, Ablett and Peacock lost it and went into red mist mode. Sadly that's what happens when the ref spends almost the whole game forgetting to get the Bulls players onside (I did not notice it as much the other way - obviously), and gets no help from his touch judges, one of whom should have gone to Specsavers as he couldn't spot a forward pass when it was right in front of him ( 3 in one movement?) They should be able to rein it in - they didn't and it cost us. If Bails had shoved the young TJ he would have gone over as his thin long legs would not have been enough to hold him up. I just hate it when an officlal has the greatest influence on the outcome of a game instead of the players' skill and hate it even more if some players enhance that incompetence by losing their rag.
Without Bentham's many errors - both ways - we would probably have won, but we should be able to overcome his inept performance. Last night that was just too much and so a draw was probably a 'fair' but very disappointing result, because it was influenced by things other than the skills and talent that were on show from two sets of players.'"
Sorry, the game was influenced by the players, Leeds players in particular.
If they'd have used their skills and talent correctly they may have won the game.
Leeds tried everything to disrupt Bradford late in the game and could have been pinned a lot more.
The Leeds players who played it fair and tried to win the game should be having a word with the others.
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| Quote ="rhinoms"Why do you feel the need to repeat what JP did?'"
Why not?
Quote ="rhinoms"I've already said it was a penalty and agree his dissent deserved a yellow but ateod all that happened in the 1st incident was pushing. '"
Still a penalty conceded while in possession and in good field position. Still one of the dumbest things you'll ever see on a rugby field. Similar to giving a penalty away on the 5th tackle and in Leeds' abysmal final nine minute spell we had one of those from Bailey as well. Coach killers.
Quote ="rhinoms"As for specific incidents Sammut x2 and L'estrange committed just the same offences in the 2nd half which could have resulted in penalties that weren't given and im sure if you look hard enough there'll be others showing Leeds players doing the same so if he isnt penalising the offence earlier why wait to do it at all it points to inconsistency imo.'"
I understand the point (and don't disagree in principal) but by specific I was hoping for a time in the game so that I could easily locate them and have a look. It's just that I don't recall seeing any (on first viewing) quite as obvious as the Peacock one on 71.
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Quote ="bewareshadows"We could start with Maguire who gave a lovely high shot near the end of the game. No contact with the shoulders, straight red, no need to look at intent or the fact the player was falling causing maguire to end up around the head.'"
Another mistake from Bentham - definite penalty, although in fairness he probably knew it was McGuire - the highest try scorer in SL history rather than Maguire - the ex Wigan coach and once upon a time Adelaide full-back skinned by Paul Sterling on his way to a wonder try at Headingley in 1997.
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| My only beef with Bentham is the spear tackle was a straight red card.
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Quote ="oldladyrhino" If Bails had shoved the young TJ he would have gone over as his thin long legs would not have been enough to hold him up. '"
As I said previously it appeared from the footage that Bailey may have given him a shove. No idea whether it was deliberately aimed at the official or accidental but in live play at 70:25 precisely (clock was still running) Bailey is behind the official and appears to shove him in the back - the official appears to react as if some physical contact has been made.
I'll be interested to see what the RFL have to say - if anything - after they suspended Bailey for three matches last year for making deliberate contact with an official: the ruling on that incident can be read here -
www.therfl.co.uk/the-rfl/disciplinary/item?3407
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Quote ="oldladyrhino" If Bails had shoved the young TJ he would have gone over as his thin long legs would not have been enough to hold him up. '"
As I said previously it appeared from the footage that Bailey may have given him a shove. No idea whether it was deliberately aimed at the official or accidental but in live play at 70:25 precisely (clock was still running) Bailey is behind the official and appears to shove him in the back - the official appears to react as if some physical contact has been made.
I'll be interested to see what the RFL have to say - if anything - after they suspended Bailey for three matches last year for making deliberate contact with an official: the ruling on that incident can be read here -
www.therfl.co.uk/the-rfl/disciplinary/item?3407
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| Quote ="oldladyrhino"As usual the comments on here are of mixed accuracy etc. Yes, Ablett and Peacock lost it and went into red mist mode. Sadly that's what happens when the ref spends almost the whole game forgetting to get the Bulls players onside (I did not notice it as much the other way - obviously), and gets no help from his touch judges, one of whom should have gone to Specsavers as he couldn't spot a forward pass when it was right in front of him ( 3 in one movement?) They should be able to rein it in - they didn't and it cost us. If Bails had shoved the young TJ he would have gone over as his thin long legs would not have been enough to hold him up. I just hate it when an officlal has the greatest influence on the outcome of a game instead of the players' skill and hate it even more if some players enhance that incompetence by losing their rag.
Quote Without Bentham's many errors - both ways - we would probably have won, but we should be able to overcome his inept performance. Last night that was just too much and so a draw was probably a 'fair' but very disappointing result, because it was influenced by things other than the skills and talent that were on show from two sets of players.'"
'"
yes, the players indiscipline!if peacock hadn't gone after bateman you probably would have won,but lets blame the ref shall we instead?
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| Quote ="Lawrie L"But he still took him beyond horizontal which still an issue
Correct call on JJB, top effort that which I didn't fully see in the South Stand'"
unintentionally.
once he realised where the tackle was going he released him,by then momentum had taken him beyond horizontal, it was dangerous yes but not malicious and whitehead let him go as soon as he realised he'd messed up.after that nothing could stop jjb from turning over.
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| I thought there were some poor calls, and we did seem to be on the wrong end of a few of them, at inconvenient times. The turnover after Kearney clearly and obviously touched it was unacceptable, im not not sure that the Hall try wasn’t a huge mistake, if it wasn’t, then we should look at the rules again because JJB had nothing at all to do with that try being scored, Sinfield drop out being given as a knock on was wrong but these things happen. There were a few bits and bobs and Bentham seemed to lose a bit of control and start pinging things at random, he seemed to swing from letting things go to clamping down on things without warning. The spear tackle wasn’t malicious, but that isn’t really relevant. Whitehead has a duty of care and he lost control of that tackle. The fact JJB wasn’t injured was luck not judgement. We aren’t strict on spear tackle because it is nasty, it is banned because it is dangerous and that tackle was dangerous regardless of intent. I would hope Benthams bosses aren’t happy with that performance, some of those decisions weren’t the standard of the quality we should expect. But our indiscipline was more to blame.
We should have been able to win in spite of that though, but it was a really really good game and enjoyed it. A bit of controversy is part of the game isn’t it?
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| Quote ="SmokeyTA" im not not sure that the Hall try wasn’t a huge mistake, if it wasn’t, then we should look at the rules again because JJB had nothing at all to do with that try being scored'"
Jones-Buchanan was in front of the kicker and stayed within the ten. That he may or may not have had an influence on proceedings is unclear but do we really want to introduce even more subjective material in to the debate.
Stay onside at the kick or if you're in front stay outside the ten or wait for the kicker to run past you to play you onside.
Let's not reward poor (or potentially worse - cynical) play.
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| I think the only decision Bentham got wrong was the Sinfield 'knock on'. Other than that he was fine. If Leeds fans should blame anyone for their team not winning this game, they should blame Peacock for costing his team a drop goal, and for getting himself sin-binned towards the end of the game.
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| I have no problems with the ref in general last night. The knock on was the only one he hat wrong against us. I didn't think Scruton was high on Bailey. He want in for the big hit and they clashed heads. His arms were around the shoulders. At the time I thought the spear tackle didn't warrant a red and when I got back and watched the incident again I was happy with Benthams reasoning on it.
I have seen many fans slating Bailey down tonight though but I for one don't see what he did wrong? When Whitehead did the spear he ran in but every forward from any team would be expected to do that. Peacock and Delaney were also straight in but no one mentions them. Then he gets slated because Scrutin came off second best so obviously Bailey is a thug and did something wrong. Fans and officials need to get a grip sometimes because Bailey, like Morley did in Australia, gets an unfair rap because of his past underscores sins and the fact he can be a wind up merchant.
I saw one comment on another website last night saying "surely Leeds fans must see Bailey does them more harm than good after tonight". That left me baffled as to what they actually see when he is involved in a play.
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| Quote ="SmokeyTA"I thought there were some poor calls, and we did seem to be on the wrong end of a few of them, at inconvenient times. The turnover after Kearney clearly and obviously touched it was unacceptable, im not not sure that the Hall try wasn’t a huge mistake, if it wasn’t, then we should look at the rules again because JJB had nothing at all to do with that try being scored, Sinfield drop out being given as a knock on was wrong but these things happen. There were a few bits and bobs and Bentham seemed to lose a bit of control and start pinging things at random, he seemed to swing from letting things go to clamping down on things without warning. The spear tackle wasn’t malicious, but that isn’t really relevant. Whitehead has a duty of care and he lost control of that tackle. The fact JJB wasn’t injured was luck not judgement. We aren’t strict on spear tackle because it is nasty, it is banned because it is dangerous and that tackle was dangerous regardless of intent. I would hope Benthams bosses aren’t happy with that performance, some of those decisions weren’t the standard of the quality we should expect. But our indiscipline was more to blame.
We should have been able to win in spite of that though, but it was a really really good game and enjoyed it. A bit of controversy is part of the game isn’t it?'"
But he got all the penalties against Bradford spot on....
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| Quote ="tvoc"Jones-Buchanan was in front of the kicker and stayed within the ten. That he may or may not have had an influence on proceedings is unclear but do we really want to introduce even more subjective material in to the debate.
Stay onside at the kick or if you're in front stay outside the ten or wait for the kicker to run past you to play you onside.'"
Correct, regardless of whether he had an effect on play, he was offside and only a few metres away from Kearney when he muffed it. The call was right. I was explaining to people around me who looked bemused at the replays before the desision was made.
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| Whinos is a very apt description of the Leeds faithful.
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| Quote ="tvoc"Jones-Buchanan was in front of the kicker and stayed within the ten. That he may or may not have had an influence on proceedings is unclear but do we really want to introduce even more subjective material in to the debate.
Stay onside at the kick or if you're in front stay outside the ten or wait for the kicker to run past you to play you onside.
Let's not reward poor (or potentially worse) cynical play.'"
Yes.
Because, in that situation, who was JJB within the ‘ten’ of? Kearney didn’t touch the ball so was he the designated player to be within the ten of? Or was it Whitehead (?) who made the tackle on Hall in the end? Neither of those players touched the ball so we are already in confusion of where what we are judging against. Also at what point are we judging this? JJB was closer to Kearney when the ball was kicked than he was when Kearney made his play at the ball (which he missed) so when did JJB need to be more than 10metres away from Kearney, or Whitehead whichever we end up judging it against?
JJB did wait for the kicker to go past him, and the kicker eventually did. This is another reason the current rules arent clear because at the point it was kicked JJB was ahead of the kicker, and the point Kearney played and missed at he was, at the point Hall regathered i would say it was pretty close and when Hall scored I think Moon was the closest player to him.
Im all for simplifying the rules, but in this case I think that subjective judgement would be simpler. If JJB involves himself in the play, even to the point of just challenging for the ball he is obviously offside, if he doesn’t, he isn’t.
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| Quote ="Bull Mania"But he got all the penalties against Bradford spot on....'"
No, as I said seemed to begin to ping players at random, especially around the ruck. Bradford players were getting away with some pretty obvious stuff, then being pinged for some stuff which left you wondering where on earth it had come from.
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| Quote ="Harrigan"I have no problems with the ref in general last night. The knock on was the only one he hat wrong against us. I didn't think Scruton was high on Bailey. He want in for the big hit and they clashed heads. His arms were around the shoulders. At the time I thought the spear tackle didn't warrant a red and when I got back and watched the incident again I was happy with Benthams reasoning on it.
I have seen many fans slating Bailey down tonight though but I for one don't see what he did wrong? When Whitehead did the spear he ran in but every forward from any team would be expected to do that. Peacock and Delaney were also straight in but no one mentions them. Then he gets slated because Scrutin came off second best so obviously Bailey is a thug and did something wrong. Fans and officials need to get a grip sometimes because Bailey, like Morley did in Australia, gets an unfair rap because of his past underscores sins and the fact he can be a wind up merchant.
I saw one comment on another website last night saying "surely Leeds fans must see Bailey does them more harm than good after tonight". That left me baffled as to what they actually see when he is involved in a play.'"
Bailey had a really really good game. Possibly our best forward last night.
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| Quote ="Harrigan"Correct, regardless of whether he had an effect on play, he was offside and only a few metres away from Kearney when he muffed it. The call was right. I was explaining to people around me who looked bemused at the replays before the desision was made.'"
My question was, at what point does Kearney become the player JJB needed to be 10 meters away from? Why is he the designated point and not any of the other players who were also not touching the ball and at what point did he need to be ten metres away from him? When he played and missed at the ball the first time? Or when he played and missed it the second time? Why was it Kearney and not whitehead (?) who was literally right behind him when he missed the ball a second time and going for it?
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| Watched the game last night and left Headingley feeling that I had watched a really good entertaining match.
Felt bit hard done to by the Ref but watched it this morning on Sky, Bentham had a good game just made a few mistakes like we all do.
The tackle on JJB was so fast and I felt at the ground it's just one of them things nothing seemed nasty about it.
The niggling thing during the match was Bradfords last try came about with Sammut pushing Danny as he played the ball. The same thing cost us a drop goal but cost Bradford nothing.
The second Leeds try that was disallowed was correct but harsh.
More games like that please ......
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| Quote ="SmokeyTA"Yes.
Because, in that situation, who was JJB within the ‘ten’ of? Kearney didn’t touch the ball so was he the designated player to be within the ten of? Or was it Whitehead (?) who made the tackle on Hall in the end? Neither of those players touched the ball so we are already in confusion of where what we are judging against. Also at what point are we judging this? JJB was closer to Kearney when the ball was kicked than he was when Kearney made his play at the ball (which he missed) so when did JJB need to be more than 10metres away from Kearney, or Whitehead whichever we end up judging it against?'"
Jones-Buchanan was in front of the kicker and within ten metres of both those players at the point they were in a position to collect the ball. They clearly didn't but had either the Bradford players touched the ball Jones-Buchanan was within the ten and offside at that point as the kicker had not advanced beyond him to play him onside. The video referee (Ian Smith) didn't appear to think whether the ball was touched by a Bradford player at that point made a difference to the ruling - I have to defer to his knowledge of the laws of the game.
Quote ="SmokeyTA"=#0000BFJJB did wait for the kicker to go past him, and the kicker eventually did. This is another reason the current rules arent clear because at the point it was kicked JJB was ahead of the kicker, and the point Kearney played and missed at he was, at the point Hall regathered i would say it was pretty close and when Hall scored I think Moon was the closest player to him. '"
Sorry but this is plainly an inaccurate statement, IMO. Moon at no point prior to Hall planting the ball advanced beyond Jones-Buchanan.
Quote ="SmokeyTA"I'm all for simplifying the rules, but in this case I think that subjective judgement would be simpler. If JJB involves himself in the play, even to the point of just challenging for the ball he is obviously offside, if he doesn’t, he isn’t.'"
I disagree. The rule is simple at present but what you propose appears to introduce more subjectivity. The rule is fine as it is. If you're in front of the kicker stay outside the ten metre zone between you and the ball unless the kicker advances ahead of your position or until an opposing player touches the ball - then you're onside.
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| I think that was the best refs performance this season
He used common sense when he had to,agreed he got the short drop out decision wrong,but also we dropped out to Leeds after Ryan Hall knocked the ball dead and not Kear
It's about time we scored at the death,although it was to draw
How many times have Leeds done that to us to win,and usually very controversial, so I'm very happy this morning
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| Quote ="rhinoms"I've no qualms with 95% of the penalties against us but if you watch the game especially 1st half there were just as many "offside calls" we didn't get in the Bulls 20/30m zone.
The high tackle call against Bailey was simply because it was Bailey and far worse went unpunished.
The Whitehead tackle was dangerous and should be a minimum 10 minute sin bin irrespective if he landed on his neck or head.
I agree Ablett was a liability and also JP got the yellow you could see coming because Bentham had lost the plot and not taken control of the ruck ,niggling,offsides from both teams much earlier.
Finally i'm a firm believer that where we have VR's they should be allowed to correct wrong calls the Sinfield knock on was shocking and a pure guess and only added to the extra pressure we found ourselves under.
The result was fair enough both teams gave their all and got stuck in whilst both sets of fans can point to calls not going there way or mistakes their team made but for me the standard of offficials is going downhill on a weekly basis and still nothing gets done.'"
I agree with you rhinoms.
Was a really good game of rugby league and I am pleased that Bradford are a competitive outfit once again and playing good rugby too. For us it was a point lost as as player errors and the critical ref decisions going against us proved the difference.
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| Quote ="roger daly"I think that was the best refs performance this season
He used common sense when he had to,agreed he got the short drop out decision wrong,but also we dropped out to Leeds after Ryan Hall knocked the ball dead and not Kear
It's about time we scored at the death,although it was to draw
How many times have Leeds done that to us to win,and usually very controversial, so I'm very happy this morning'"
It was a million miles from the best ref performance, not even close. We have had Thaler twice this season, lost both, and he has been absolutely excellent in both, by far the best ref. Don't give us sour grapes rubbish, losing points isn't an issue, consistency and fairness are, something Thaler can do and Bentham can't.
And he didn't only make one mistake against Leeds, he made double figures mistakes. He also made them against Bulls also.
Had we won that game my view on him would have been no different.
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| Quote ="Backwoodsman"I will be a happy man when Watkins goes back to his centre position .'"
Me too but only because Ablett has been showing his limitations as a centre.
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| Quote ="tvoc"Jones-Buchanan was in front of the kicker and within ten metres of both those players at the point they were in a position to collect the ball. They clearly didn't but had either the Bradford players touched the ball Jones-Buchanan was within the ten and offside at that point as the kicker had not advanced beyond him to play him onside. The video referee (Ian Smith) didn't appear to think whether the ball was touched by a Bradford player at that point made a difference to the ruling - I have to defer to his knowledge of the laws of the game
Sorry but this is plainly an inaccurate statement, IMO. Moon at no point prior to Hall planting the ball advanced beyond Jones-Buchanan.'" Im not sure you can argue the rule is simple, but that you don’t really understand it and will defer to Ian Smith. Doesn’t seem simple to me to be honest. And you seem to be saying that had either Bradford player touched the ball, at that point JJB was offside, but there were 11 other Bradford players who also didn’t touch the ball, so why is it judged in relation to Kearney and Whitehead and not the 11 other Bradford players on the pitch? He was certainly 10 metres away from the winger on the other side, he also didn’t touch the ball.
Quote I disagree. The rule is simple at present but what you propose appears to introduce more subjectivity. The rule is fine as it is. If you're in front of the kicker stay outside the ten metre zone between you and the ball unless the kicker advances ahead of your position or until an opposing player touches the ball - then you're onside.'" So you are saying that Hall, who was onside, picking up the ball from a Moon kick was the point at which JJB became offside? And JJB needed to be 10 metres away from his own man? I have never heard of an attacking player having to give his own player 10 metres.
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| Quote ="Gotcha"It was a million miles from the best ref performance, not even close. We have had Thaler twice this season, lost both, and he has been absolutely excellent in both, by far the best ref. Don't give us sour grapes rubbish, losing points isn't an issue, consistency and fairness are, something Thaler can do and Bentham can't.
And he didn't only make one mistake against Leeds, he made double figures mistakes. He also made them against Bulls also.
Had we won that game my view on him would have been no different.'"
Jeez it wasn't half as bad as you make out. He made a couple of mistakes but who doesn't? He got far more right than wrong.
At the end of the day it wasn't him that lost a league point for Leeds.
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