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| Quote ="Juan Cornetto"icon_lol.gif
Ken Dalby (KD) taught me Maths too (or was it 2?) and also coached the school Union team and took the matches on a Saturday morning. After the Saturday morning matches several of us would grap some lunch and head for Headingley to watch our heros at Leeds RL. (it was Saturday fixtures in those days)
Ironic really, but I learnt my RL on Becketts Park while at Headingley CP from a Scottish teacher who was brought up on Union. (he later taught/coached a young Schofield in south Leeds) and at secondary school learnt Union from KD who was a former Leeds RL manager, noted club historian and life long fan. Perhaps explains my love of both codes but preference for League.'"
I think it was the head teacher Mr Mathews who mostly soured my view of the Union Game, He banned us playing League and so we played Union against mostly Grammer Schools. Huddersfield Grammer Pudsey Grammer and the like.
Mr Dalby introduced us to Rugby League and we played Union for the school Saturday mornings. RL U17s Saturday afternoons and later RL open age on Sunday mornings.
I have always preferred RL but comparing it to Union is a bit like Apples and Oranges really.
Ken Dalby told us there were only 2 things that were the same in each code. The posts and the grass.
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| Union (much like football) is a sport where it's too easy for the inferior side to stifle the ambitions of the superior one by denying them possession and taking time out of the game. Something which it's much harder to do in League.
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| The main attraction for me with RL is that the attacking side can only go forward hence the game is more dynamic and fluid and there isn't the option of simply retaining possession to deny the opposition the ball as in soccer and to some extent RU
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| The problem with trying to retain the ball in union for the sole purpose of denying the opposition possession is that its impossible to keep that up for 80 minutes and unlike football you cannot switch that tactic on when you go one score up, all it takes is for a succession of two or three rucks to draw in all of your forwards to maintain the possession and hold up play for as long as you can and suddenly your defensive line is horribly exposed to a mistake and a switch of possession.
Its often been compared to a game of chess, you just need to understand the rules and be patient.
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| Quote ="JerryChicken"
Its often been compared to a game of chess, you just need to understand the rules and be patient.'"
Good analogy
Yes RU is a game of Chess, complex rules, played tactically, some might say slowly, playing for position, the advantage ebbing and flowing, seeking to gradually pile on pressure, until the opposition collapses.
RL is a game of Checkers, straight forward rules, all positions going forward, often at pace, forcing positions until gaps are created, and the opponents line is breached.
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| Quote ="DoubleAone"The main attraction for me with RL is that the attacking side can only go forward '"
What about Vickery at Hull
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| Quote ="JerryChicken"The problem with trying to retain the ball in union for the sole purpose of denying the opposition possession is that its impossible to keep that up for 80 minutes and unlike football you cannot switch that tactic on when you go one score up, all it takes is for a succession of two or three rucks to draw in all of your forwards to maintain the possession and hold up play for as long as you can and suddenly your defensive line is horribly exposed to a mistake and a switch of possession.
Its often been compared to a game of chess, you just need to understand the rules and be patient.'"
Up until this season though, it was easy for teams to retain possession and wind down halves/games when they were in the lead. I've seen plenty of examples of teams going through 14/15 phases of possession with nothing but pick and drives from the back of a ruck, each then taking 15-20 seconds to recycle the ball to the back again.
The changes for this season meaning that the ball has to be used as soon as it becomes available to the player at the back of the ruck will lessen that, but it won't stop teams playing what is in effect unlimited tackle league to wind down the clock.
Just don't get me started on scrums, and the complete inability of even elite referees to determine who and why a scrum might end up collapsing...
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| I was talking to a Yorkshire RU ref last week over a pint and this coming season he is going to explain the new scrum contact rules to the pack once then he will start to award penalties after the first offence.
Quote New scrummaging law takes force
Dr Syd Millar insists the scrum is still an integral part of the game
New Year's Day saw the introduction of new scrummaging rules designed to improve player safety in rugby union.
The International Rugby Board passed a law late last year to bring packs closer and reduce the force on impact.
From 1 January, referees at all levels will implement a new four-stage "crouch, touch, pause, engage" process.
In addition to the engagement sequence, front rows cannot engage with their head and shoulders lower than their hips in a bid to stop collapsed scrums. The IRB investigated the safety of the scrum following recommendations made by the organisation's medical committee, but rejected calls to follow rugby league and "de-power" the set-piece.
Another key difference to the current sequence is that the two props have to touch their opposition number's shoulder. This ensures that the scrum remains a true contest which is important for the game
IRB chairman Dr Syd Millar insisted the contested scrum remained central to the sport. "An essential element of rugby is its physicality," he said. "This has to be appropriately balanced with the welfare of participating players and the IRB continues to take such issues very seriously.
"The IRB believes that the contested scrum is an integral part of the game and that rugby is unique in that its playing charter provides the opportunity for individuals of all shapes and sizes to play the game.
"That said, we have taken expert medical and technical advice that indicates that it is now appropriate for the game to adopt a less vigorous scrum engagement sequence."
Former England international Jason Leonard, the world's most capped prop, assisted the Law Project Group in its review of the scrum.
He said: "This new engagement sequence will standardise the distance the two sets of forwards are apart, reduce the collision at engagement and will assist in ensuring that both sets of forwards are at the best horizontal height possible.
"This is crucial to the successful engagement of the scrum.
"With the reduced impact, and forwards at the correct height, we will see an associated improvement in the bind.
"This should also assist in minimising collapsing of the front row. It also ensures that the scrum remains a true contest which is important for the game.
"It in no way impairs both teams' ability to contest for the ball." '"
I asked him how thick was the RU rule book...he just laughed.
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| I'm surprised he didn't say they are laws not rules, that what most people say when I make that heinous error
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| Quote ="The Eagle"I'm surprised he didn't say they are laws not rules, that what most people say when I make that heinous error'"
touché again
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| Quote ="DoubleAone"I was talking to a Yorkshire RU ref last week over a pint and this coming season he is going to explain the new scrum contact rules to the pack once then he will start to award penalties after the first offence.
I asked him how thick was the RU rule book...he just laughed.
'"
If he's refereeing that set of laws then he's going to be awarding penalties every scrum and have some very baffled front row forwards. That's an extract from a 2006 document and those laws were completely changed last year.
Even front row frowards can remember "crouch, bind, set".
The changes actually make sense, most scrums collapse because the props are either starting with their shoulders below their hips (because the want to propel themsleves upwards and force the opposing prop upright so he can't push and can be penalised for popping out of the scrum), or becasue the props bind on the arm (or not at all). Props bind on the arm to de-stabilise their opposite number and win a penalty by fooling the ref into believing their opponent as collapsed deliberately. However, if you bind on the arm your neck and body are in the wrong position - your shoulders need to be square - and you can't push straight.
In mini and junior rugby you work hard to make sure that props are bound porperly and that they start with their shoulders above their hips because it's very, very dangerous for kids to do otherwise. The difference in the body position and how square the shoulders are is amazing when you demostrate the difference between binding on the arm and on the body.
Frankly if referees had policed proper binding for the last 10 years then the scrum would be much less of an isue than it is now.
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| Quote ="DHM"If he's refereeing that set of laws then he's going to be awarding penalties every scrum and have some very baffled front row forwards. That's an extract from a 2006 document and those laws were completely changed last year.
Even front row frowards can remember "crouch, bind, set".
The changes actually make sense, most scrums collapse because the props are either starting with their shoulders below awtheir hips (because the want to propel themsleves upwards and force the opposing prop upright so he can't push and can be penalised for popping out of the scrum), or becasue the props bind on the arm (or not at all). Props bind on the arm to de-stabilise their opposite number and win a penalty by fooling the ref into believing their opponent as collapsed deliberately. However, if you bind on the arm your neck and body are in the wrong position - your shoulders need to be square - and you can't push straight.
In mini and junior rugby you work hard to make sure that props are bound porperly and that they start with their shoulders above their hips because it's very, very dangerous for kids to do otherwise. The difference in the body position and how square the shoulders are is amazing when you demostrate the difference between binding on the arm and on the body.
Frankly if referees had policed proper binding for the last 10 years then the scrum would be much less of an isue than it is now.'"
Very informative,I enjoy watching the ru six nations when Brian Moore waxes lyrically about the antics of the scrum and the tricks of the front row.
One of my pals was watching a recent tykes match with a senior ru referee, who was mystified at some of the scrum penalties being awarded by the referee.
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| Quote ="DHM"Frankly if referees had policed proper binding for the last 10 years then the scrum would be much less of an isue than it is now.'"
Scrums are now so much more about how much power you can put into the initial hit and how long you can sustain it as well.
With increases in size and strength in the forwards, there's so much force going through that initial hit (even under crouch, bind, set) that it can be difficult for the props to control the bind. You've got a set of forces coming from the second rows behind you, and an opposing set of forces coming in the opposite direction. The second you lose your balance either your footing is going to go and the scrum collapses, or you're going to lose your bind just to try and stay on your feet.
The problem for the administrators is the entirely random way in which referees award penalties for scrum offences. I've seen sides who have been completely bossing the scrum area all game penalised for taking it down, when there's absolutely no reason for them to want to do so. Usually, it's because a player in the retreating scrum has done something to cause a collapse which the referee hasn't spotted and he's had to guess.
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| Quote ="Backwoodsman"Very informative,I enjoy watching the ru six nations when Brian Moore waxes lyrically about the antics of the scrum and the tricks of the front row.
One of my pals was watching a recent tykes match with a senior ru referee, who was mystified at some of the scrum penalties being awarded by the referee.'"
Talking to a West Park RU player and the same RU ref again today, regarding a recent game and they were both equally mystified re the decisions taken at many of the set scrums.
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| Quote ="Andy Gilder"Scrums are now so much more about how much power you can put into the initial hit and how long you can sustain it as well.
With increases in size and strength in the forwards, there's so much force going through that initial hit (even under crouch, bind, set) that it can be difficult for the props to control the bind. You've got a set of forces coming from the second rows behind you, and an opposing set of forces coming in the opposite direction. The second you lose your balance either your footing is going to go and the scrum collapses, or you're going to lose your bind just to try and stay on your feet.
'"
Some props used to cut the sleeve off their outside arm to prevent a bind from their opponent bck when they had baggy shirts, but now the skin tight shirts do add to the difficulty of binding properly. I completely agree regarding the massive amount of power going through the props now, it's pretty scary. The real problem is the one you highlight in your first sentence - the power through the initial hit. What they should be doing is taking the weight, they should only be pushing once the ball is put in. In this the laws didn't change, the scrum should not be moving when the ball is put in. What's been hapening is that hookers don't hook anymore, there's a hit then a drive and the pack walks over the ball as it's blatantly fead.
Under prevsious years laws (crouch, touch, pause, engage) the scrum was never still - the ball was going in right on engage. If they can get the scrum to be still before the ball comes in then there won't be the momentum of 8 massive guys moving as they engage and drive simultaneously. This should help reduce the power going throught the front row.
As I said, the difference in body position if you bind correctly is significant and massively improves the stability of the scrum. It also makes it more difficult for a prop to bore in as it squares up his shoulders.
I also agree that referees misunderstanding of why a scrum goes down and the desire of the people who run the game to avoid continuous resets has resulted in arbitrary penalty deceisions that make very little sense.
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| I should add that I only propped once in a club game and broke my knee when everyone apart from me in our scrum lost their footing and went rapidly backwards. I copped the full weight of a bunch of fat boys from St Albans on my straight left leg. They heard the crack in the clubhouse.
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| Quote ="DHM"I should add that I only propped once in a club game and broke my knee when everyone apart from me in our scrum lost their footing and went rapidly backwards. I copped the full weight of a bunch of fat boys from St Albans on my straight left leg. They heard the crack in the clubhouse.'"
Ouch ...
I once had to sit on a guy for 20 minutes whilst physio at Bus Vale. He had split his knee cap and the ambulance took ages.
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| Quote ="DoubleAone"Ouch ...
I once had to sit on a guy for 20 minutes whilst physio at Bus Vale. He had split his knee cap and the ambulance took ages.'"
We had that happen to someone after I had the bright idea of giving the juniors a "lads against dads" game at the end of the season. It was only touch tackle, but one dad fell over backwards and his foot stuck in the ground as he fell.
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| When I broke my tibia and fibula at Headingley RU, I was fortunate enough to be on the same pitch as two junior doctors doing their orthapaedics rotation at LGI. Timing
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| Quote ="DoubleAone"Ouch ...
I once had to sit on a guy for 20 minutes whilst physio at Bus Vale. He had split his knee cap and the ambulance took ages.'"
I can't believe I let my son play. Still, he's a very good swimmer and that's a heck of a lot safer (just have to sit 12 hours a week watching him plough up and down the pool and pay a fortune in club fees).
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| Quote ="Richie"We had that happen to someone after I had the bright idea of giving the juniors a "lads against dads" game at the end of the season. It was only touch tackle, but one dad fell over backwards and his foot stuck in the ground as he fell.'"
At my brother's club they have a 1st Team vs Vets full contact 80 min game at the end of every season, the Vets consisting of anyone who was unfortunate enough to be in the clubhouse when the captain, a rough tough Sth African who still thinks you are a wuss if you don't like the raw meat that he force feeds everyone from his braai at every fundraiser, comes around with his clipboard.
There has yet to be a year when someone doesn't get a serious injury and its usually on the Vets team and its usually ankles and knees from the head thinking that the body can still do things that time has prevented it from doing now - our kid did one of his knees in a couple of years ago just by stepping in a rut on a hard pitch - still its worth it to see every second scrum pause for the Vets front row to pass the cigarettes around.
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| I think the recent and new laws for the scrum encourage a dangerous big "hit" from each pack with a constant need to reset the scrums. I do not understand why they don't revert to the old laws that allowed the scrum to form in a stationary position with all binding correctly, and only when the ball is put in can the shove begin. I played a bit at scrum half and we used to have to say "ball coming in NOW" which was the signal for the hookers and pack to compete.
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| Quote ="Juan Cornetto"I do not understand why they don't revert to the old laws that allowed the scrum to form in a stationary position with all binding correctly, and only when the ball is put in can the shove begin. '"
Not "technical" enough apparently.
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