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| Quote ="tvoc"There was a wider observation re Kirke's high and low metre per carry games which looked beyond this one encounter - that this one encounter appeared to fall in line with could be just one of those coincidences but there again it might reflect the observation that making fewer carries a game can distort the outcome. Have you analysed the legality and defensive line speeds in those other encounters also?
As for minutes - at least one of us will occasionally make an effort to ascertain some, even though it's not the one who places the biggest emphasis on it before often reaching questionable conclusions.'"
Your wider observation, over whatever period, is equally flawed for the same reason I gave earlier.. If you choose to take a narrow view without taking into consideration other key factors then your judgements will always be flaky.
In the days when you were happy to cut and paste the opta stats I asked on several occassion for the minutes played without which the other stats have lesser value. Only on rare occassions did you produce the minutes played and understandably only for televised matches. Statistics are a tool to provide management information to assist in decision making and assessing performance. Without the full set of stats which the clubs subsribe for we are all just expressing personal opinions based on limited information, hence I tend to play devil's advocate against the critics.
I am suprised that as a hobbiest keeper of records you have not seen the importance of the minutes played stat without which much of your other records are somewhat meaningless. |
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| Quote ="tvoc"Then are you yourself defending without also knowing the length of a stint?.'"
I an not one of the ones making critical attacks without knowing the time on the field which is my point.
Quote ="tvoc"Now that you hopefully do know (and to the second thanks to some helpful contributor - how long Kirke played at Wigan are you standing by your judgement of his effort in that game - which included the novel 'you can't make tackles on defence and be expected to carry the ball in on attack when you're a prop' , it's just that you haven't returned to the thread in question almost as if you are trying to avoid it - and I know that won't be the case here.'"
I still do not know the minutes for Kirke. Are you asking me to accept your numbers when when I know your judgement to to be flaky. |
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Quote ="Juan Cornetto"In the days when you were happy to cut and paste the opta stats I asked on several occassion for the minutes played without which the other stats have lesser value. Only on rare occassions did you produce the minutes played and understandably only for televised matches. Statistics are a tool to provide management information to assist in decision making and assessing performance. Without the full set of stats which the clubs subsribe for we are all just expressing personal opinions based on limited information, hence I tend to play devil's advocate against the critics.'"
Those rare occasions at least being an improvement on what Opta provide without subscription then. If the stats only provide limited information (which I agree they do) why do you use them and insist on calling them 'facts' ?
Quote ="Juan Cornetto"I am suprised that as a hobbiest keeper of records you have not seen the importance of the minutes played stat without which much of your other records are somewhat meaningless.'"
The vast majority of my records have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with a minutes played stat, or carries, or tackles, or busts or any other category Opta choose to publish online. I record these only as a comparatively recent addition (since 200icon_cool.gif but only because they are available.
As long as they're listed week by week I'll record them but if they weren't there I wouldn't lose a second of sleep over it.
My initial interest was to highlight the frequent errors such as mistaking Ian Kirke for Rob Burrow in relation to a 40:20, when they miscount the numbers of penalties awarded/conceded or when they award more try assists than there were tries scored or when they credit Danny Buderus with kicking a conversion. (Spookily Buderus actually did this a couple of weeks ago only it was back in his native Newcastle - probably not a lot of people spotted that.) Then there are the genuine queries on consistencies, asking why a pass wasn't an assist when almost every kick (no matter how many fumbles) that results in a try still is - to do this someone has to try to marry the stat with the action and there are not many around.
Quote ="Juan Cornetto" I still do not know the minutes for Kirke. Are you asking me to accept your numbers when when I know your judgement to to be flaky. '"
Numbers or judgement?
Kirke played a stint at Wigan that began when he replaced Leuluai at 18 minutes and 57 seconds (according to the Sky in-game clock), he ended the first half still on and started the second half the same until being replaced by Singleton at 53 minutes and 10 seconds. A stint of 34 minutes and 13 seconds - Fact - he replaced a prop - Fact - he made 3 carries in that game - Fact.
Your avoidance of replying to my post on that thread will have been noted : viewtopic.php?f=17&t=558195&tsmp=1379426559&start=55
On page 2 you asked:
Quote ="Juan Cornetto"How many minutes was he on for?'"
tad rhino replied:
Quote ="tad rhino"at least 15.
and three carries is an absolute disgrace'"
And tad was right it was at least 15 - in reality we should all now be able to accept it was many more than this
and your next offering was
Quote ="Juan Cornetto"If it were 15 minutes then he would have been active in a tackle or a carry every 37 seconds. In your opinion this qualifies as a disgrace does it?
 '"
But no-one had said it was 15 - only that it was at least 15 which it clearly was and a figure that you yourself felt had been exceeded. Hardly a solid foundation for suggesting a fellow poster is stupid now is it? (Especially one that has qualified for this forum's prediction comp play-off this season and also finished the table prediction comp a creditable 16th to your joint 40th : viewtopic.php?f=17&t=542167&tsmp=1378768527&start=82
Quote ="Juan Cornetto"Once again keyboard is tapped and opinion formed before any form of reasoning is engaged.'"
Was this you being self-deprecating ? Unlikely. You built a case to defend Kirke's workrate on an entirely erroneous figure of 15 minutes even though you yourself thought he was on longer than that and now that the truth of the minutes is out there - the silence is deafening.
You asked the question but seemingly weren't all that if at all interested in the answer especially when it rode a coach and horses through your flaky case in Kirke's defence. |
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Quote ="Juan Cornetto"In the days when you were happy to cut and paste the opta stats I asked on several occassion for the minutes played without which the other stats have lesser value. Only on rare occassions did you produce the minutes played and understandably only for televised matches. Statistics are a tool to provide management information to assist in decision making and assessing performance. Without the full set of stats which the clubs subsribe for we are all just expressing personal opinions based on limited information, hence I tend to play devil's advocate against the critics.'"
Those rare occasions at least being an improvement on what Opta provide without subscription then. If the stats only provide limited information (which I agree they do) why do you use them and insist on calling them 'facts' ?
Quote ="Juan Cornetto"I am suprised that as a hobbiest keeper of records you have not seen the importance of the minutes played stat without which much of your other records are somewhat meaningless.'"
The vast majority of my records have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with a minutes played stat, or carries, or tackles, or busts or any other category Opta choose to publish online. I record these only as a comparatively recent addition (since 200icon_cool.gif but only because they are available.
As long as they're listed week by week I'll record them but if they weren't there I wouldn't lose a second of sleep over it.
My initial interest was to highlight the frequent errors such as mistaking Ian Kirke for Rob Burrow in relation to a 40:20, when they miscount the numbers of penalties awarded/conceded or when they award more try assists than there were tries scored or when they credit Danny Buderus with kicking a conversion. (Spookily Buderus actually did this a couple of weeks ago only it was back in his native Newcastle - probably not a lot of people spotted that.) Then there are the genuine queries on consistencies, asking why a pass wasn't an assist when almost every kick (no matter how many fumbles) that results in a try still is - to do this someone has to try to marry the stat with the action and there are not many around.
Quote ="Juan Cornetto" I still do not know the minutes for Kirke. Are you asking me to accept your numbers when when I know your judgement to to be flaky. '"
Numbers or judgement?
Kirke played a stint at Wigan that began when he replaced Leuluai at 18 minutes and 57 seconds (according to the Sky in-game clock), he ended the first half still on and started the second half the same until being replaced by Singleton at 53 minutes and 10 seconds. A stint of 34 minutes and 13 seconds - Fact - he replaced a prop - Fact - he made 3 carries in that game - Fact.
Your avoidance of replying to my post on that thread will have been noted : viewtopic.php?f=17&t=558195&tsmp=1379426559&start=55
On page 2 you asked:
Quote ="Juan Cornetto"How many minutes was he on for?'"
tad rhino replied:
Quote ="tad rhino"at least 15.
and three carries is an absolute disgrace'"
And tad was right it was at least 15 - in reality we should all now be able to accept it was many more than this
and your next offering was
Quote ="Juan Cornetto"If it were 15 minutes then he would have been active in a tackle or a carry every 37 seconds. In your opinion this qualifies as a disgrace does it?
'"
But no-one had said it was 15 - only that it was at least 15 which it clearly was and a figure that you yourself felt had been exceeded. Hardly a solid foundation for suggesting a fellow poster is stupid now is it? (Especially one that has qualified for this forum's prediction comp play-off this season and also finished the table prediction comp a creditable 16th to your joint 40th : viewtopic.php?f=17&t=542167&tsmp=1378768527&start=82
Quote ="Juan Cornetto"Once again keyboard is tapped and opinion formed before any form of reasoning is engaged.'"
Was this you being self-deprecating ? Unlikely. You built a case to defend Kirke's workrate on an entirely erroneous figure of 15 minutes even though you yourself thought he was on longer than that and now that the truth of the minutes is out there - the silence is deafening.
You asked the question but seemingly weren't all that if at all interested in the answer especially when it rode a coach and horses through your flaky case in Kirke's defence. | |
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for me kirke, as well as kylie, shouldn't be anywhere near leeds next year.
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| Quote ="tad rhino"for me kirke, as well as kylie, shouldn't be anywhere near leeds next year.'"
Kylie started the year well enough but i really do think of late he is starting to look shot.Maybe we were too quick to give him another year. There was no rush, its always the case when players hit mid 30's they can just look spent in an instant. |
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| Quote ="Biff Tannen"Kylie started the year well enough but i really do think of late he is starting to look shot.Maybe we were too quick to give him another year. There was no rush, its always the case when players hit mid 30's they can just look spent in an instant.'"
Completely agree. Of course some smart fella on here suggested such a thing whilst everyone was cheering at the announcement of Kylies contract on that thread. |
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| Quote ="Gotcha"Completely agree. Of course some smart fella on here suggested such a thing whilst everyone was cheering at the announcement of Kylies contract on that thread.'"
I remember you did! I thought it was a good move at the time as Kylie was still going well, but father time seems to have got hold and by the time next season begins im not sure what he will have left.we will see. |
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| Quote ="Gotcha"Completely agree. Of course some smart fella on here suggested such a thing whilst everyone was cheering at the announcement of Kylies contract on that thread.'"
but as i said before you weren't the only one, despite you thinking you were! |
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| Quote ="tad rhino"but as i said before you weren't the only one, despite you thinking you were!'"
I am not dissagreeing with you. If you said you did, then good enough for me.
I was the one that took the abuse for saying it though. |
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think rhinoms was of the same opinion
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| Quote ="tad rhino"think rhinoms was of the same opinion'"
Almost ,i did accept that he'd shown good form but thought it was too soon also "aslong as it didn't mean we lost Singleton ,Baldwinson and Tonks or that their respective pathways to the 1st team were blocked".
Out of all this though which i find more concerning is the fact that the likes of Kylie and Kirke and on 85% of this years form Bailey still will be 1st choice 17 irrespective of form that's shocking imo.
Even now at this moment in time no matter if we win the GF or not next year we have a pack that has Kirke ,Kylie and the inconsistent Bailey in it??
I think/hope the rumours/news about Singletons long term deal are true and along with JP and Delaney when fit/not rotated he should be a definate starter.
Of cousrse we can also hope Yates breaks through and Achurch gets the gametime to improve and earn his spot in the regular 17 but who knows??? |
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| Quote ="tad rhino"think rhinoms was of the same opinion'"
I was also of the opinion that if giving a 35-year-old Kylie another year meant missing out on a 25-year-old Amor then it was a dumb deal.
You can also add the fact that we missed out on two other good young props, Walmsley and Taylor, who moved clubs last year.
What would have be the better prop rotation for this year and going forward:
Peacock, Leuluai, Bailey, Kirke, Singleton, Moore
or
Peacock, Amor, Walmsley, Taylor, Singleton, Baldwinson?
They would have cost a similar amount and all bar two of them were contracted to the club. |
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I was one of those pleased Kylie was given another year and stand by that. He has shown good form this year and seems a genuine person who would not play on if he felt he could not do himself justice. I agree though Amor should have been found a place in next years squad.
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| Quote ="craigizzard"I was also of the opinion that if giving a 35-year-old Kylie another year meant missing out on a 25-year-old Amor then it was a dumb deal.
You can also add the fact that we missed out on two other good young props, Walmsley and Taylor, who moved clubs last year.
What would have be the better prop rotation for this year and going forward:
Peacock, Leuluai, Bailey, Kirke, Singleton, Moore
or
Peacock, Amor, Walmsley, Taylor, Singleton, Baldwinson?
They would have cost a similar amount and all bar two of them were contracted to the club.'"
A very astute posting and correct posting, to miss out on amor was poor judgement amongst several others of late.
Several months ago I said I had a slight worry in the direction the club was going in signing players. Hethrington states he does not see the need to add to the squad with new signings, the club will produce the players.
That slight worry is now become a major worry, missing out on walmsley was to me a big mistake.
All this coupled with the fact of the signing of Vickery who from day one did not look the part, it makes me wonder about Hethrington . In the past I have praised him but at the moment I am not certain.
Maybe he will produce some thing in the close season and surprise me, hopefully so.
One things for certain the major players of this team are aging and performances of late have not been good, peacock excepted. |
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Kirke and Leuluai went well last night, didn't they?
Was Walmsley even on the field?
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Good old AG with a "hindsight" retort .
Yes AG they played well especially IK who as i posted elsewhere was outstanding imo lets hope he shows as much fire and quality of work next week and beyond!
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| Quote ="rhinoms"Good old AG with a "hindsight" retort .
Yes AG they played well especially IK who as i posted elsewhere was outstanding imo lets hope he shows as much fire and quality of work next week and beyond!'"
Good old rhinoms with a "well he should play like that every week" retort, reserved solely for Kirke.
See the coach decided that Singleton wasn't up to dealing with the pressure of knockout rugby. Did he get that call wrong again? |
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| Quote ="Andy Gilder"Good old rhinoms with a "well he should play like that every week" retort, reserved solely for Kirke.
See the coach decided that Singleton wasn't up to dealing with the pressure of knockout rugby. Did he get that call wrong again?'"
Does kirke justify his selection EVERY week AG a simple yes or no??
Has Kylie looked as good as effective (Wigan aside) every week in the last few months??
Onto Singleton prior to KO he was very unlucky to miss out given recent performances of Bailey and Kirke and Achurch's absence.
Finally lets not get giddy and give it big licks about Kirke that's his easily his best performance in 2yrs minimum he was rightly praised on that just like his other performances have been discussed |
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| Quote ="Andy Gilder"Kirke and Leuluai went well last night, didn't they?
Was Walmsley even on the field?'"
Walmsley got injured early in his stint so, no, for the most part he wasn't on the field.
You also seemed to miss the "going forward" part of the post, which was the main point. But other than that, carry on. |
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| Quote ="Andy Gilder"Good old rhinoms with a "well he should play like that every week" retort, reserved solely for Kirke.
See the coach decided that Singleton wasn't up to dealing with the pressure of knockout rugby. Did he get that call wrong again?'"
Yes he got that all massively wrong. Does a win really play with people's minds to that extent? It appeared a stupid decision before kick off and then was proven after 20 minutes of the game. Playing players unfit is a massive risk and we got through it luckily. Delaney on his haunches after 3 minutes and limping, and JJB having to leave the field on 20 minutes. |
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| Quote ="Gotcha"Yes he got that all massively wrong. Does a win really play with people's minds to that extent? It appeared a stupid decision before kick off and then was proven after 20 minutes of the game. Playing players unfit is a massive risk and we got through it luckily. Delaney on his haunches after 3 minutes and limping, and JJB having to leave the field on 20 minutes.'"
Evening Gotcha - you're sounding pretty feisty for someone whose central theory (and many subordinate ones) is now in flames and over the next week may well have crashed and burned completely.
I recall you saying recently that your view of McDermott would never change. But would another Grand Final win not make any difference to you at all? |
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| Quote ="Fetlar"Evening Gotcha - you're sounding pretty feisty for someone whose central theory (and many subordinate ones) is now in flames and over the next week may well have crashed and burned completely.
I recall you saying recently that your view of McDermott would never change. But would another Grand Final win not make any difference to you at all?'"
My theory? I have said all year we would win the grand final with one last hurrah from these players. As of now though, I don't. I think this clueless coach has flogged certain players too far, and nothing left for them.
I did say a few weeks back if McDermott did win it this year I would give him credit due to the injuries, even though I feel it is down to his selections. I don't think I will need to now though. Which is unfortunate for some truelly great players in that team. |
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Re-signing Kylie was the right thing. This only re-surfaced after a poor overall performance against Warrington so last night's performance is just as relevant.
Kirke should not be selected based upon his perfrtmances, IMO, but it's hard to argue against his display last night.
The usual negative nellys are massively over reacting to Walmsley and Taylor both of whom have been outplayed by our pack this season.
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| Quote ="G1"Re-signing Kylie was the right thing. This only re-surfaced after a poor overall performance against Warrington so last night's performance is just as relevant.
Kirke should not be selected based upon his perfrtmances, IMO, but it's hard to argue against his display last night.
The usual negative nellys are massively over reacting to Walmsley and Taylor both of whom have been outplayed by our pack this season.'"
Do you think leeds have enough left in the tank for 2 more big performances? |
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I'm not sure. Leeds are so hard to call. I certainly wouldn't bet against them.
One thing that was pleasing was that they said they realised they had to work on winning the ruck after the Warrington game and they did exactly that. I'm not McDermott's biggest fan but he deserves some credit for fixing a few things this past week.
The injuries are mounting again but Singleton and Sutclffe is like money in the bank.
What the hell, heart over head, yes we can!
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