It is possible I know people who did it, you can't do it having a job that works 2 or 3 hours a week its hard work but its possible if you want to - and thats the problem too many take debt for granted and think it didn't matter.

I lived at home and worked damn hard simply because I knew couldn't afford to live away - its about living within your means, I would have loved to move away to uni but it wasn't possible. But we have a society who on the whole are uncapable of living within their means so why is it a shock most students can't.

I get a lot of help off my parents, who as most people know, are very good to me.

If I didn't get this help, there's no way I'd be able to live away for uni. For example, my dad paid my £350 housing deposit yesterday, there's no way I could afford that.

bang on.

Universities have always accepted anyone who pays - particularly overseas students. There should be a scholarship scheme that covers the fees and living expenses (to a reasonable amount) of the top 5-10% of academic achievers. The old grant system was means tested but even posh kids got their fees paid and their housing benefit etc. (as it should be in my view - they are independent adults and should be treated as such).
Universities have lost track of what they really are and if you dilute them out you will have less quality and more quantity. We wouldn't want SL to revert back to one division containing all pro/semi pro teams would we?
It's just not the right place for most of the people who are there, and it's become a substitue for actually creating employment and careers for young people out of school. Eventually natural selection will apply and a top tier will emerge (if it's not happened already), only this time the top tier will be as unnacessable to the lower waged as University was pre-war.

I understand your point, particularly on the academic subjects, but then I disagree with you too.

I'm also of a vintage where a university entry had to be earned the hard way rather than simply progressed into, but at the same time those who had earned it the hard way were generally funded through their course with no debt at the end of it other than their beer money (and bank overdrafts weren't handed out like confetti either).

I started Grammar School with 120 other lads in my year, by the time we got to the first year sixth to do A levels only 30 or so remained and some, including me, dropped out after the first year sixth.

Of those 30 only a handful went on to a Uni of some description and that was as many as the university system could handle, entry levels were extremely high so that only the very gifted were accepted and the courses were generally limited to the "professions", science, law, medicine etc.

I prefer the system now.

My eldest is two years through a Uni course that she simply had to ask to be on, yes she had to achieve certain marks but there was always going to be room for her and as many students who wanted to attend - I've no doubt that you'll argue that thats because the standards have been lowered to ensure that as many as possible are included in the system but I'd argue that I'd rather have 80% of students going through A levels and further education beyond that than have 80% of 16 year olds thrown into the workforce and only a tiny percent of 18 year olds be accepted at a few Universities.

Which ever way you look at it we have a more educated population now than we ever did when I was 20 years old.

A lot of people aren't in the situation to be able to have hand outs from Mummy and Daddy to make life easier for them through uni though, if you are in the position to do so it makes having a massive overdraft even more stupid in my opinion as there really is little need for it with some hard work and common sense.

As for the point on who gets into university I can see both sides of the argument, yes its good that pretty much anyone who wants to go to university can do but does this system devalue the idea of having a degree? Does it mean as much now as it did 20 years ago to be a graduate? It now seems to be expected that 18 year olds will go to University rather than it being something only the "best" in that field would do.

I don't think we are that far apart. I posted earlier that I think University has become a universal dumping ground for 18 year olds. There are better places to educate, train etc. young people - and get the best out of them and not have them lumbered with debt. The older Uni's are/were places of academic study. There was a criminal lack of investment in young people in this country for a long time. Something needed to be done but dumping everyone into existing Universities or new ones created in some cases from 6th form colleges was not the way. I suspect it was the easiest way, but not the best. I also would have struggled to go these days, and I suspect there are lots of bright kids who are put off by the debt involved.
I do agree that we have the most educated population probably ever, but also the most in debt.

And just to say, I am book smart - I understand what I do and was always able to easily absorb the science I studied and understand what was going on. But I don't think I'm particularly clever and never have. There's lots of things I wouldn't have a clue about that non-uni educated people do every day extremely well. Uni made me able to function in the industry I work in, but I did warehouse work at Kays in Leeds one summer, and I was totally unable to master most of the work there (and they tried me on everything). I was only fit for taking pallets up in the goods lift. My wife, who left school at 18 to work as an adminstrator at Lang Homes is far smarter than I am, and could earn more money up until the last couple of years.

I disagree with the comment that it is nigh on impossible to live at uni without going in an Overdraft. I often in the first year and 2nd year wish I had an Overdraft when I only had 4 pounds and 30 pence to last me till pay day. Luckily pay day was 3 hours later. I have to budget within my means. Some weeks I had 150 pound to live with, and one week i had 27 pound. I asked my dad if it was best to get an Overdraft and his answer was "that is the easy way out, just don't go out this week, simple" I hate it at times that I am a student and "don't have a 9 to 5 job", but I do disagree with the sentiment that it is nigh on impossible to live without an Overdraft.
I thought you had a weekly/monthly payment from your grand parents anyway Jord?

As for the loan lasting you 3 months, don't you live on your job?
I literally live on my wage. It's rubbish really, and depressing at times when you can only go out once every 2 weeks, and work every Friday and Saturday night when i have to miss Rugby and can't go out on boozy weekends away, but I look at it that I only have one year left after these next few weeks, and then I will be able to have a "clean slate" as it were, and then try and get mortgage etc.


With alot of people getting loans and then alot getting grants, I don't know how people need multiple over drafts. Well I do, there too lazy to get a fecking job. some lads I know in one house turn upto around 3 hours a week of lectures and are in bed till around 2pm every day. That bores the hell out of me personally, but each to there own I guess.

lainey wrote: In 2010 all Unis will have the opportunity to raise their fees to £5,000. All Unis will be increasing their fees in 2010 not just Leeds Met.



No, it's not right.

I get roughly £150 a month off various members of my family, it's still not enough to live off.

Granted things are a lot better for me this term as I am working, I regret not getting a job sooner.

Stay out of the fooking pub then!!!

I spend roughly £50 a week, £20 of which goes on shopping, I'd spend a lot more than £30 a week on socialising at home than I do down here.

It gets better and better



So now you work, do you not get the roughly 150 pound anymore?

Interesting thing to note is that alot of people were going on holidays last year, yet most of my mates at University are saying how it made them so skint last year, that they're settling for a weekend in Brighton/Blackpool etc.

Seriously with the job situation though, one lad said to me that his brother never got a job, got into huge debt but came out with a first, and he has multimple overdrafts, no job, but also gets the grades that he wants.
I suppose there is a balance really, because I have done around 20 hours this weekend, but downside is that I have a 2,500 word assigment to do all night tonight for tommorrow afternoon.
I couldn't not work though as I spend around 70/80 pound a week (at least), and I just couldn't sponge that off anyone or put that in an Overdraft, because as I was saying earlier, I want a clean slate financially as it were when I have graduated.

Can you tell I hate been stereotyped as a student. Oh and plus at this moment in time I'm getting taxed.

So he's spoiled aswell.

Right, Ive tried and tried not to get involved in this "debate" but I cant avoid it any longer; partially due to work boredom, partially due to opinion.

I went to uni (Leeds met) for 4 years and at then end of it I had no debt whatsoever. I worked all through my degree and althouth I did get a loan (Straight in an ISA; its free money ffs) it was paid back straight away and all was and still is good. Now; I don't see why If I can do it, others can't. Im conscious of some courses needing expesnive equipment and foreign placements etc etc and admittedly this may mean some people need to borrow money but this should be the exception. As it is, im the exception for leaving with No Debt, it seems £20k debt is the norm nowadays.....

Universities for me have become abit of a joke. From my experience schools and colleges push you down that path, and the quality of students has been affected. On my course there was some people who I would regard as being "unsuitable" for higher educaction. Now, im all for equality and there paying to study just as I am. But when you get one of them in your study group and 1/3rd of your mark is down to their contribution to a project this is grossely unfair on those who may be a) Working harder and b)Alot more capable. When i got into uni my parents were "proud" because I was the first in the family to go to university. Now i believe that this pride will be lost as it becomes increasingly easier and increasingly more commmonplace for people to go to uni. I'd dare sasy that those who don't now go from school are in the minority.

On the subject of those being "helped" by parents/grandparents etc etc etc. Im not against this in anyway, but I think those getting this "free" money should be grateful. Not that I have any suggestion they wouldn't be. I'd like to think that when and if I have kids I will support them as much as I can finanicially. Chances are they'll be going to uni nowadays.

Overall, what I'm saying is that the majority dont need to get into debt to go to and progress successfully from University. Its all about sacrifice. I may not have got two weeks in magaluff with the lads off my course every year, some designer jeans, and some wicked nights out in town on student nights when I was at uni. But what I did get was a degree, which at the end of the day is what its all about, and I believe alot of people currently at uni forget that. What they wont forget is the thousands that they owe. Unfortunately Neither will the banks/credit agencies......

Agree about the people in study groups!

I've recently been stuck with a group who were quite frankly all thick apart from me and one other girl, we ended up doing all the work and the others would have got the same mark as us. I wasn't prepared to accept this so spoke to my tutor and asked for a peer assessment.

From this alone, I kind of got the feel that these people were just at uni for a laugh, because their standard of written English was awful, the lad from Budapest's work was easier to understand!

Spot on.

Although university isn't the best option for a lot of people it has become expected that 18 year olds will go to university, most are happy to go but couldn't care less about their education being more concerned about who can down the most pints without throwing up everywhere and ing their student loan/overdraft/any other money they can waste against a wall. The hysterical thing comes when they are then panicing about an assignment due in the next day because they haven't had time to do it - awww must be a hard life uni 10 hours a week sleeping and getting ed all day

Too true mate; I was in a group of 3 for the specific assement I was thinking. One lass was a part timer on a different course (that included the module lecture we were in) She lived it London and because she was a part timer she was only in 1 day week and that day was full. The other lad....well lets just say he arrived by bus. A big yellow bus which he claimed had the nicest tasting windows ever. Lost cause mate. the thing was he tried. So i thought about a peer assement and spoke to my tutor about it and it wasnt that he wasn't co-operating or wasn't doing the work, It was just the fact he was thick as f**k. Lost cause mate, quit now, get to McDonalds. They even get you B.Tecs nowadays....

That was the thing with a lad in my most recent group, he did his work, it was just nothing to do with what we were being asked.

I ended up doing his two sections aswel as my own two, and wasn't prepared to accept it, he won't be passing.

its all about money making, just look at the international students.

i had one task with three chinese students couldnt speak a word of the queens. me and another lad took on the bulk of the work and asked them to produce one simple slide each. what did they do, hand in a copy and paste of a web page! blatent plagerism, so we had to re-do it for them. we got a 70, but 'proportional marking' meant we had to rate everyone in the groups effort - they didnt understand so put everyone at 50% effort so I ended up with 55 instead of the 70 id put in all the work for.

point is, no one at the uni cared. they were just fleecing these international kids, who it turns out were re-sitting the year anyway!

on the debt size, what does it matter? students get themselves into their own mess, as long as they dont come running why should anyone else pass judgment. if anything, they're the only ones stimulating the economy at the minute!

That's exactly my point, as long as students work all summer to pay back their overdrafts etc what's the problem?

Do you not think that attitude says a lot about the way we think about money now - ahh its someone elses problem it doesn't matter.

No matter what most 18 year olds say they aren't mature enough to think in the long term, to consider the problems they are creating for themselves in the long run and the banks are actively encouraging that with their offers of overdrafts and credit cards and of course all this "free" money is ever so appealing until the day they realise the debt they have left themselves with that they have to struggle to clear.

people seem to forget that even when they graduate with a good degree there's no gravy train. most graduates have to graft harder than ever putting in more hours to gain experience or are on training programmes where they're worked like dogs. reality is most of us will never pay off our loans, repayments only just cover the interest, so it doesnt matter how much debt you get really. some students are just silly though, but most of those drop out or are kicked out after their first year

personally ive got about 20 grands worth of debt after 5 years at uni, i always worked, but i lived the full uni life as well. i hated uni itself, but loved the social life, in particular the rugby team. i wouldnt have stayed had it not been for the social side, uni wasnt really for me. but i new i needed a degree to get me where i wanted to be.

your never gonna stop students partying, and i dont think anyone can say they dont understand the implications of their debt, most do. they just realise they can pay for it later. that might seem like the wrong attitude but its the reality. im paying for it now. do i regret it - not one bit. in fact, if i lost my job tomorrow id go back!

Being a student is a hard balance these days. You have to balance Uni work and getting the grade that will make the whole exercise worthwhile, with earning enough money to not cripple yourslef for years to come, with enjoying what is the prime of your life, and times that most people won't experience in their lifetime. Some people are lucky, some unlucky with the £ side of things. Some are stupid with money and some are careful. Its about achieving the right balance within your given circumstances