From the St Helens viewpoint where obviously a loss becomes a win:

13-Mar-04 ….. CC - 05 ….. Away ….. Lost 24 - 14
30-Apr-04 ….. 09 - 09 ….. Away ….. Lost 56 - 10
23-Jul-04 ….. 09 - 20 ….. Home ….. Won 70 - 0
10-Sep-04 ….. 09 - 27 ….. Away ….. Won 19 - 25
18-Feb-05 ….. 10 - 02 ….. Home ….. Won 30 - 18
27-May-05 ….. 10 - 15 ….. Away ….. Lost 38 - 24
30-Sep-05 ….. PO - QSF ….. Away ….. Won 16 - 19
24-Feb-06 ….. 11 - 03 ….. Away ….. Lost 13 - 4
22-Jul-06 ….. 11 - 22 ….. Home ….. Lost 14 - 18
09-Sep-06 ….. 11 - 27 ….. Away ….. Lost 54 - 18
21-Apr-07 ….. 12 - 11 ….. Home ….. Won 38 - 19
06-Jul-07 ….. 12 - 19 ….. Away ….. Won 10 - 22
28-Sep-07 ….. PO - QSF ….. Away ….. Lost 10 - 8
13-Oct-07 ….. PO - GF ….. Neutral ….. Won 6 - 33

2007 was payback for 2006.

1) Definitely true.
2) Also true, but it didn't affect the result.
3) Agree about Senior but not Burrow. I thought we lacked some direction and cohesion in midfield - we had chances to score (i.e. possession in the right area) but didn't take them and looked short of ideas. Burrow has to take some responsibility for this.
4) Buderus' passing was suspect today. Looked rusty, but neither hooker excelled.
5) Agree. Bailey's absence was exacerbated by Leuluai being our worst player, Burgess not having a good game and Kirke seeming to have little game time.
6) I think Gibson's getting some undeserved stick on here. I thought he did OK - didn't let anyone down in defence and I remember him putting Donald in space on the outside twice in the first half, the first one he dropped, the second he was tackled by Gilmour.
7) Agree.

I think our major deficiencies were front row and playmaking. I was disappointed that Burrow didn't control the game better, especially as Long was missing for them. In terms of changes, we're a little short of options dur to a lack of depth in the forwards in particular. I'd hope Bailey will play on Friday, possibly starting with Burgess and having Peacock in second row. A definite change must be to switch Donald to left wing - he looks a shadow of the player he was last year. I thought that when Lauitiiti offloaded to him in the second half and he was tackled into touch on the South Stand side that he didn't seem to be able to step off his right foot - unsurprising for a left winger! He's had a season and a few games on the right wing and been hit and miss. In two seasons on the left wing he was the best winger in the competition. He looks distinctly average now.

Time for Mr Hetherington to open the cheque book and offer Shenton a offer too good to refuse!!

Shenton would be ideal IMO, although I'd quite like to see him stay at Cas as they continue to improve.

Something is not right at leeds IMO The body language of the players seems very negative and we do't seem to have that spirit. Wether there is something going on behind the scenes I don't know but a lot of our players look tired and down. I have before posted we need to bleed the youngsters through but I have now changed my mind. Maybe a new signing will lift the team spirit.

Also If we were with out some class individual's we would be destroyed by saints. Burrow and Peacock seemed the only ones who turned up which is worrying. On paper i would say man for man we have the strongest team but we don't play like a team we to much rely on individual players.

Those days are gone. Shenton should be on more within Castleford's pay structure than he would be on at Leeds. Afterall they have the same cap at their disposal these days .

The pitch needs to be more along the lines of the one made to Gareth Ellis, 'come to Leeds and have a chance of winning things'.

Why is everyone bulling up Bailey? He too is liable in defence and does sod all in attack! Ablett is a forward not a centre. Specialist centre required asap please, but it will cost us some of the Eastwood cash.

Or even some of the spare cap we had regardless of Eastwood not coming.

Because he made one 'hard' tackle on Faasavalu at KR a couple of weeks ago.

Even if you argue that St Helens' forwards were on top, I would still expect a lot more from Leeds supposed creative players. There seemed to be effort from them (esp Webb), but no real idea or talent, especially McGuire (who seemed to spend his day crabbing along the line waiting for a gap to open up).

If they were following some set coaching patterns or plays, it perhaps bodes even worse as they seldom broke the line. Also disappointing from Burrow, especially as St Helens didn't have a recognised scrum half playing. Or is it that there is little difference in the roles and responsibilities of halves these days and they are easily interchangable?

Leeds have played a flat attack for a few years but its been picked up on so we have to stand further back. There is still the option for flat but a decision has to be made. Leeds are struggling with that. I've never seen so much ball go to ground out of the ruck.

A while ago, St Helens were masters of the flat attack. For the past few seasons, probably since DA arrived we have a new attacking structure whereby we attack from deep, with countless runners, running good lines. We can still use the flat attack well, when needed, but I feel we have more success by attacking from deep. With the pace Leeds have, if they can master the same structure we use, they will pretty much be unplayable.

Agree entirely with that.

In all honesty, despite the championship last season, I think we started to be "found out" then, and we have not addressed to a plan B.

I've always been a fan of the deep line. Great to watch when played at speed. Whilever we get results playing a flat line I'm happy but still prefer the attack from deep option for entertainment value.

Weren't the bulls our closest rivals in Smith's early years?

This is the problem with stats to some extent you're always comparing apples and oranges.

Our ball retention was awful yesterday.

On the positive side we do have 6 months to get the deep attack working.

2007 GF what happened to Saints happened to Melbourne in the 2008 Aussie GF it was simply a bridge too far - the play off game did for them - more to do with that that any Smith masterplan IMO. The game at Headingley did they not have half a side out or was that the previous year?

Under McClennan the following players have improved in my opinion Hall, Smith, Burgess, Ablett, Kirke, Bailey, McGuire is far better stand off now than he was under Smith and Donald in 2008 but his swop seems to have had the reverse effect. Those that have got worse JJB - who was Smith's pet project - and Diskin the rest are much as they were. Some of the senior players are simply not going to improve - Webb, Senior, Sinfield, Peacock they just become more consistent.

On Burrow his confidence must be shot - two serious concussions in a short period of time cannot help - a big centre will simply run over him and they do regularly.

The only issues I have with McClennan is team selection - having said that he is hampered by the lack of attacking options on the right and until GH sorts that out the only structured attacking outlet is to Senior

2004 - on the league table it was Bradford and yet Leeds beat them four times out of five that season while only winning two from four V St Helens.

2005, 2006 and 2007 St Helens finished on top at the end of the SL Regular Rds so it'd be difficult to place them below anyone else as Leeds' chief opponents, a situation continued in 2008 and 2009 thus far.

Had Mclennan come up wit hthat performance I suspect you wouldn't be explaining it away, you'd have been creaming yourself. BTW, if they were shot from the playoff game who coached us in that?

They had some injuries but no less than they had yesterday.

OK, its' just opinions I guesss but if Hall didn't improve Mcl;ennan would be a lousy coach, under Smith he was a part time kid. Burgess didn't play under Smith so that is a strange statement. Donald was the same in 2008 as he was in 2007 9and 2006 for that matter). he's gone so far backwards under McLennan's master stroke of switching sides.

What does that mean? I know you've always had an issue ith JJB but surely you can see what a tremendous player Smith made him. Bluey has failed to keep that up. Maybe Bluey can't improve players the way Smith could??

Agreed. One wonders why the coach would ask him to defend a player like Matt Gidley.

What has changed on the right since that pinnacle in 2007 GF, or even Mclennan's effort in last years?

The Burrow of the last few years would have scored from that break, he took the complete wrong option, Gardner was still in the defensive line and Meli was on the other side.

It was like:

|--------------- Try Line ----------------|
|
|
|---------------Wellens-----Meli
|
|
|-------------Burrow
|
|
|--Defensive Line------------------------|

Burrow dummied his run to the left then came back on the right, now if he had either done it the other way round or just carried on running left he would have scored and usually you'd expect him to make the right desicion.

Burrow makes the break




Burrow runs to the left where he would beat Wellens to the line




Burrow comes back to the right where Wellens and Meli are.




Burrow is tackled

Burrow's decision was to take the tackle and look for a quick PTB.

Which achieved a 3 V 2 option on our right side attack

The error was in the subsequent play......

Was that when kylie drove the ball in when we had an over-lap?

It was Sinfield, very selfish and stupid play.

Oh right i know kylie did it aswell with a 4/2 over-lap.