That's my opinion.

The 2012 vintage Leeds Rhinos have so far this season been spanked at three of the sides currently above them in the table and beaten by one of the others at home.

Again - in my opinion - the 2012 vintage is not as good a side as the 2011 one. Some players have declined, others have been brought in that are not up to the standard of the players they are replacing. There were times during that 2011 season where the side gave glimpses of what was to come in the playoffs. Those have been few and far between in 2012.

Expecting it to go on the sort of winning run that climaxed the 2011 season is - again, IMO - unrealistic.

Self-portait?

If you see us in a hole, we were in a bigger one this time last year. Our results weren't dropping in and so far this year we've shown our ability to win some of the big games (WCC/Wire). This group of players know when to peak. If they save their best for last again I can't see why we can't cash in again.

The glimpses that we showed last year, weren't at this stage of the season though were they? Maybe you should reserve judgement and see what they can/can't produce.

This side can't do it forever that much is obvious. Competitions and clubs evlove, we've had our lot for a lifetime some would argue. But the blend we have know how to get the job done to a level no other team can compete with.

People made similar remarks last year, you are not re-inventing the wheel. Time will tell whether you have egg on your face or not. I'd have a hanky ready just in case.

These doom laden comments always come after a stinking defeat. People make big judgements against small stock.

While I agree that winning from outside the top 4 would be a difficult feat to repeat, I still think we're in better nick than this time last season. There are probably more teams looking capable of being competitive than last season, but I think our form has been better. The home games against Catalan and Wire (albeit when they had some players out) were decent performances, but we haven't been able to maintain that level. At some of our lower points this year (Saturday and the Hudds home game, for instance) we've looked flat and off the boil, but nothing to compare to the home-field bummings we got from Wire and Hudds in spring and early summer 2011. In my opinion.

The idea of bringing in a group of youngsters together a la 2000/2001 is appealing in some ways, but my recollection is that those changes were very much enforced by injuries etc. I'd rather see a steady trickle into the first team, with increasing game time (and loans where appropriate) for the likes of Ward, Hood, Singleton etc. Hardaker and BJB are also very much works-in-progress, so that process of refreshing the squad is already happening.

The youngsters in 2000/2001 got their backsides handed to them painfully a couple of times that I recall (and I was away at Liverpool Uni at the time so only really got to Saints and Wigan away matches, so I can't comment on the whole season). It worked out in the long run, but I can't see any real need to do that this season.

We have a lot of the top sides at home yet, plus a came in hand v wakefield at home. I think fourth, even third is possible yet.we have dropped silly points though imo

Pack need to play better as a unit and it would be good if the halves posed more of an attacking threat. I think we'll be there or thereabouts for both cup and grand final but probably place somewhere mediocre in the league.

I think that like last year, we are targeting the one trophy that has eluded this group - the Challenge Cup.
And again like last season, if we fail, the back up will be the Grand Final. My concern is that this year there appears to be more competition in the League and this strategy may not work as well as it did last time!

Batley and backwoodsman have already made the point that I'd make.
i.e. start our players 6, 7 and 13 at positions 6, 7 and 13 and we'ld improve immediately.


In the latter end of last season, we saw Leeds' key players reverting to their natural 6, 7 and 13 positions in the second half of games and winning games like that.
McDermott got off the hook because of it.

Calling for wholesale changes every time we lose a league game is getting rather boring now.

I think you may have hit the nail on the head there in regards to your key positions. And ALL key positions at that.

1 - Brent Webb - Past his best and costs you more in penalties than he does anything else.
6 - Kevin Sinfield - A loose forward.
7 - Danny McGuire - A stand off.
9 - Rob Burrow - Is he a hooker or a scrum half? I think he plays well in either to be fair, but was very effective off the bench last year.
Other hooker - Paul McShane - Relegated to reserves in favour of an on-loan hooker.
13 - Whichever second rower you can be bothered to put there each week (happens at a lot of SL clubs these days, including mine).

I think if you signed a decent scrum half, it would go a long way to addressing the balance of the team. But at the moment you've got a lot of very good players being handicapped by playing out of position. Is this just an English coaching thing? This happened a lot at Hull over the Agar years.

The only problem with this plan is that Sinfield is NOT a loose forward any more. At stand-off he can get away with doing less tackling & hit-ups which is prolonging his career. Our pack isn't firing enough as it is without having to accommodate a lightweight 13 AND 9 (all our hookers are small!). If Sinfield plays there it means more work for the rest of the pack.

This is why Burrow was forced onto the bench when Buderus was here, and why he's now considered as a hooker. Either we get rid of one of these players, or we stick to the present formula when Burrow returns.

When will people realise it isn't 2004 any more? The game has moved on, and so have our pivotal players.

This seems pretty spot on to me...




But I'm also tending towards this...

Didn't Sinfield play 6 in 2004 (Furner at LF at least in the big games)



Aside from the defensive workload Sinfield doesn't really play any differently at 6 or 13. When Sinfield played 13 in 2007 & 2008 we had a monster pack that could carry a lightweight 13. I'm not sure we'll ever see a pack like that again.

One thing stands out more than any other mind.....Mcdermott has got to sort out brent webb. he is a great player but embarrassing for your club at the same time , he bittches more than tompkins does.
surprised he hasnt copped more 10 min sit downs for his gob than shown

I still would like to see sinfield have spell at loose forward, he is a good passer of the ball and usually a good tactical kicker. I don't think he is quick enough for the stand off role. As loose forward he should be linking the ball from the ruck area to the backs as when needed.
Early on this season I expressed my concern at burrows playing hooker,purely because of his lightweight build, running up at the opposition forwards he is highly effective but when tackled by two or three forwards the inflict a lot of damage. Remember at st Helen's they knocked seven bells out of him.
Obviously Danny Mc guire is a top class stand off let's play him there.
I can understand our coaching staff switching players around due to injuries,but once all the troops are back I would like players to fulfill the roles in which they seem to perform best at.
I make no apologies for these traditional views,having played the game for a number of years,I was always taught that the key to any successful team was the triangle shape of half backs with the loose forward.
We are fortunate we have three quality players who have proofed time after time they can produce the goods. At least let's try it out for a few games if it's not successful go back to what Brian Mac thinks will work.

Loose forward is just an any-mans rule these days. Extra pivot, extra back row, extra prop. You can suit it to what you like.

To me, it appears that the team HAS to fit around Kevin Sinfield or not at all. I think this is where there is an imbalance. He isn't a top class 6, and his moving there makes others have to move out of position (they do it at international level as well when we have better options).

I think Leeds need to put McGuire back at stand off, bring in a proper scrum half and if you want to continue with a front/back rower at loose, move Sinfield to hooker with Burrow coming off the bench.

I guess I must be in the minority, but I'm not overly worried at the moment. An unavoidable fact about the competition nowadays is that, other than perhaps the odd derby / top of the table game, the only time you're really going to see two sides going at each other full tilt is in a big cup match or a play off match. Beyond that, there are more often than not motivational factors which lead to one side being more "up" for the game than the other, and so far this season we've had three of those games (Saints just after the players had got what they wanted and got their coach sacked and now had the coaching team they wanted in place, Bradford in their supposed "last game ever" with a huge crowd and emotion running higher than ever, and Hull with a point to prove after the spanking they took from Wigan, numerous players back, an extra week off prior to the game, and fans worked up into a frenzy over the whole Briscoe/Pearson/Hetherington thing). Add to that our other two losses (at Wigan a week before the WCC on a night when not very much went our way at all, and against a strong Huddersfield team when we were missing the likes of Webb, Burrow and McGuire, and hence a large percentage of our creativity) and one could suggest that none of these losses were massively unexpected.

Obviously you have to factor in the fact that Leeds played badly in all of these games, but we have to accept during the regular season that sometimes there are going to be games when, for whatever reason, the other team simply wants it more than we do. Obviously, as fans, we want the team to play their best in every game, and over the past couple of years there have been numerous times when we haven't seen this, but I still don't think there's anything to be too worried about (for example, I certainly don't think we've been anywhere near as bad this season as Saints were in the month or so when the majority of their players seemed to be going out of their way to get Simmons sacked!).

I may be stupidly naive, but I genuinely think that, with a full strength team, when we're on our game, there's not a team in the league we're not capable of beating, and as such our season is far from being a write off. Caddick and Hetherington are about as far from being mugs as it gets - their faith in McDermott and the team paid off handsomely last year, and who on earth are we to question what they are doing this year and demand radical changes left right and centre? To judge the team so harshly on the back of the Hull game is crazy! We have a lot more big game performances still to come this season, and I remain hopeful that we will win something. If we don't? So be it - we have no divine right to win anything, and if we don't it will be because someone better than us did. I would still rather have our squad than any other squad in the league!

You're far too sensible for here

You may well be in the minority, doesn't mean you are wrong though.

A thoughtful, calm, post.

Short sighted ramblings always occur after a stinking defeat. Why weren't these ever so important 'issues' flagged after the WCC?

Ref wellsy 13.
As a kid I was fortunate to see Johnny Whitley play a few times,what a marvellous player. Also some hard men playing alongside him.Drake brothers etc etc.

I'd love to know what the differences people think there are in playing 6 & 7 these days

...or indeed after the recent excellent display against Catalan.

Our fans are far too reactionary. That goes both ways. As well as the usual suspects who creep out of the woodwork after the odd defeat you have the other category who over react to a victory or a good performance.