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| Gotcha brings out the Smith didn't make much difference from DP line. There's always at least one. Its the biggest myth about Leeds from my 30 years watching the game.
I agree that playing staff makes a difference. You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. I agree that some of our squad are performing individually poorly, and even at their best with everyone fit we may not be able to win the competition. But its absolute rubbish to suggest that the team put out on Friday couldn't have given Warrington a much better game. They played REALLY BADLY. Far worse than they are capable of.
Underestimating the effect of a good coach is daft. The list of evidence is endless. David Ward in his first season as Leeds coach made us a hugely competitive side with on paper one of our weaker sides (sadly not backed up by the Board in the following year - compare to the massive influx under Laughton straight afterwards). Graham Murray turned a team with a couple of stars and a LOT of previously average players (Fleary, Farrell, Sheridan, Cummins, St Hilaire, Andy Hay, Jamie Mathiou to name but a few) into a really tough side to beat. Tony Smith won us our first championship in 30 years with Lautiti and Bai added to a squad which looked nothing like genuinely capable of winning the competition the year before. McGuire won Wigan a competition in his first year with not that many changes. Smith won Warrington the CC in his first year. In the NRL Wayne Bennett won St George their first title in years again with only a few changes to previous squads which looked to have no chance.
A good coach makes players look better. When you compare Wire's squad to ours one on one with everyone fit there are a number of Leeds players 'better' than (or at least as good as) their counterparts. What we saw on Friday was a complete shambles from one team and a very good effort from the other. Its not that long ago that Warrington were the other way round - lots of talented players who got blown apart by other teams.
Simply put, I don't have any confidence at all in McDermott to be able to turn things around.
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| Quote ="BrisbaneRhino"Gotcha brings out the Smith didn't make much difference from DP line. There's always at least one. Its the biggest myth about Leeds from my 30 years watching the game.'"
Where? Show it mate. It annoys me when people jump in posting something that has not been said. Show where I have put Smith did not make a difference, otherwise an apology would be appreciated.
Quote ="BrisbaneRhino"I agree that playing staff makes a difference. You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. I agree that some of our squad are performing individually poorly, and even at their best with everyone fit we may not be able to win the competition. But its absolute rubbish to suggest that the team put out on Friday couldn't have given Warrington a much better game. They played REALLY BADLY. Far worse than they are capable of.'"
I agree, not disputing that at all. But when all said and done, =#FF0000no matter who the coach was we would still be on the same number of points we are now, with the same losses. From that you would have the very same posters putting the very same complaints. So what changes?
My own personal opinion is that I would be prepared to lose every week if we played rugby like we were doing in 2005. But the fact is the club and the fans are not going to accept that. And we are not going to get back to winning and good rugby without a change in playing personel.
Quote ="BrisbaneRhino"Simply put, I don't have any confidence at all in McDermott to be able to turn things around.'"
And no where have I suggested I do either. But it is a pointless exercise to change the coach without having significant changes to the playing personel.
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| I think we would have picked up a few extra points with a better manager in charge
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| I agree Ferdy ,Gotcha a better coach would of had us much better organised defensively at least and that's what cost us games against the Pies ,Quinns ,HKR and Saints.
I reckon we'd of won at least 2 of those 4 games mentioned with a better coach.
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| Quote ="rhinoms"I agree Ferdy ,Gotcha a better coach would of had us much better organised defensively at least and that's what cost us games against the Pies ,Quinns ,HKR and Saints.
I reckon we'd of won at least 2 of those 4 games mentioned with a better coach.'"
Pie in the sky fantasy mate. I reckon I could have been shagging Cheryl Cole had I met her.
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| Quote ="Gotcha"Pie in the sky fantasy mate. I reckon I could have been shagging Cheryl Cole had I met her.'"
Yes we will never know but equally you wouldn't be able to know that with a better coach we wouldn't have picked up more points.
A better coach would have made us more organised in defence, respect posession better not just offloading anywhere and I would imagine motivate and get the players to perform better.
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| A decent coach wouldn't put up with all the arm waving, penalty begging, referee back chatting that this team has been doing for the last few season.
Somewhere on this board I read about how when Smith first arrived at Leeds (and Warrington I think) the first thing he did was teach players how to catch and carry the ball. With a few better carries on Friday we'd have scored more than 6 points. Without giving away silly penalties in the second half we wouldn't have conceded so many points. Yep we might not be winning more games but at least we'd be competing.
I can take a loss, but I can't take been blown away by teams that on paper aren't that far away from us. Wigan, Huddersfield, Saints and now Warrington. I'm not saying we should have beaten them, but we should have been closer to them than we were.
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| Dropping Clarkson, Burgess and McShane was stupid, and so was putting Robbie Burrow on the bench. It was like he wanted us to lose the game, putting in form players out of the team and letting players who haven't hit any form at all have a go.
McDermott needs to go. If he wants to ruin a club that were challenging for trophies, he's going the right way about it!
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| Agree the most stance decision that has been made wasthe leaving out of in form players
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| Too right Brisbane! A good coach enables players to play to potential, uses their strengths and lessens the effect of their weaknesses by adopting a sensible gameplan - none of which happened on Friday and is the most noticeably missing feature from our recent games. Over recent weeks there is an air of casualness and lack of determination, particulary evident in a few players (eg BC and WH) which nullifies the efforts of the rest who don't know how to play with anything less than 100%. This is what was is so disappointing. The coach has to take responsibility for that and deal with it. I don't hold out any hope for Friday because I don't think McD even knows how to deal with it.
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| Wasn't impressed with post match interview on friday from sky
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| Quote ="oldladyrhino" Over recent weeks there is an air of casualness and lack of determination, particulary evident in a few players (eg BC and WH)'"
How recent are you talking about? Ben Cross (assuming that's who BC refers to) hasn't played for over a month
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| Quote ="Gotcha"Pie in the sky fantasy mate. I reckon I could have been shagging Cheryl Cole had I met her.'"
In your humble opinion of course!
We would of been better defensively for a start with a more tactically aware coach and also had better discipline.
C'mon D when you think back to thoses matches a bit more structered defence with more composure and better discipline would of beaten the Pies and Saints at the very least.
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| Quote ="rhinoms"In your humble opinion of course!
We would of been better defensively for a start with a more tactically aware coach and also had better discipline.
C'mon D when you think back to thoses matches a bit more structered defence with more composure and better discipline would of beaten the Pies and Saints at the very least.'"
It's called "Clutching at Straws" mate, that's what your doing and others.
We are talking about a group of players who have been playing together for a number of years now. A group of players who have won 4 championships, and played in numerous finals. We are not talking about a bunch of kids, or players new to the game. If these players do not know how to organise themselves in defence, when not to offload a ball, when to respect possession, and getting themselves motivated, then they have gone further backwards than even I think. A coach is not out on the park with them, and was not out on the park with them through McClennan, Smith, or Powells reign.
It is ironic how conveniently some have forgotten the contribution credited to McDermott during Smith's reign, and no doubt the very same posters calling for him now were the ones saying when he left and we had a dodgy spell how we missed him. What's changed? The players certainly put a lot down to him previously.
There is no doubt that questions need to be answered about our current coaching set up, let's be clear on that. But people are just in fantasy, if they seriously believe that our current playing set up would see us challenging for the trophy's again, regardless of coach.
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| nobody said challanging for a trophy, people said we would do better.
if you think smith, brown, mcguire, lang or murray wouldn't improve us then i think you are badly wrong
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| Quote ="rhinoms"C'mon D when you think back to thoses matches a bit more structered defence with more composure and better discipline would of beaten the Pies and Saints at the very least.'"
Why do you think it's down to the coach if players choose to fly out of the defensive line, or lose patience with the match officials and start giving away penalties - neither of these areas are exclusive to McDermott being in charge, both were being pointed out as failings of the team under both Smith and McLennan?
Difference under the other two is that the players still had the hunger and natural ability to dig themselves out of the holes they had created. Once your abilities start to decline, it's harder to cover up the other deficiencies in your game. A number of this Leeds squad are in decline but have benefitted from Hetherington showing an unusual. irrational level of loyalty. Hopefully some of the recent results will have given the CEO a timely reminder that sport has no place for misguided loyalty.
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| Quote ="Gotcha"It's called "Clutching at Straws" mate, that's what your doing and others.
We are talking about a group of players who have been playing together for a number of years now. A group of players who have won 4 championships, and played in numerous finals. We are not talking about a bunch of kids, or players new to the game. If these players do not know how to organise themselves in defence, when not to offload a ball, when to respect possession, and getting themselves motivated, then they have gone further backwards than even I think. A coach is not out on the park with them, and was not out on the park with them through McClennan, Smith, or Powells reign.
It is ironic how conveniently some have forgotten the contribution credited to McDermott during Smith's reign, and no doubt the very same posters calling for him now were the ones saying when he left and we had a dodgy spell how we missed him. What's changed? The players certainly put a lot down to him previously.
There is no doubt that questions need to be answered about our current coaching set up, let's be clear on that. But people are just in fantasy, if they seriously believe that our current playing set up would see us challenging for the trophy's again, regardless of coach.'"
If the players were deciding their own defensive and attacking structures we wouldnt have need for a coach. But they dont, different teams employ different tactics. We this season are employing different tactics to what we employed last season. Some of those arent working.
The players probably do know when to offload and when not, when to respect possession and when to throw it about a bit, how to tackle, but other coaches have evolved and know when our players think its the right time to do these things and how we are going to go about it, they know our defensive structure and what to do to give themselves the best chance of getting around it so we will struggle to beat them.
With better structures, both attacking and defensive our players will have a better chance of performing to the best of their abilities with the converse true for the opposition.
There is no reason this squad of players cannot challenge for trophies. They won the league less than two seasons ago, for the third time in a row. You dont lose that level of quality in the space of two seasons through normal attrition. These players are capable of challenging, winning is another matter, but challenging certainly.
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| Quote ="tad rhino"nobody said challanging for a trophy, people said we would do better.'"
But yet they have nothing to back that up with.
A kid who gets a E on his exams could have done better and should have got a D. Is that really something to be happy about?
Quote ="tad rhino"if you think smith, brown, mcguire, lang or murray wouldn't improve us then i think you are badly wrong'"
How tad. How would they improve it? You are using examples in the case of Smith, Brown, and McGuire who have had the benefit of coming into clubs with players with an hunger and wanting to improve with years ahead of them, and all of the coaches having their say on recruitment.
I'll give you what Murray did for us was a case of taking poor players beyond what you would expect. But that was 12 and 13 years ago tad. The games moved on massively since then. Those same standard players would never have done the same with the competition now, and therefore I would definately question whether Murray could repeat that.
You are dealing with a group of players who have put their body's on the line for a lot of years, and player's who have won everything they need to. There isn't the hunger for them to push their body's further, and nothing left to give. That is the fundamental problem of what we have now. And for any coach that needs to change in order for it to be a success.
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| of course we need new blood, i said that 2 years ago. but we are a shambles. a good coach will organise a team.
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| Quote ="tad rhino"of course we need new blood, i said that 2 years ago. but we are a shambles. a good coach will organise a team.'"
So where back to the main point. New blood is required. I have no problem in a new coach and probably prefer it, although been fair I do think McDermott deserved a fair crack with his own players, and think he could come good. But priority for me is the players, and the fact that a lot of them are shot. Posters saying we would be back with a new coach on it's own are deluding themselves.
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| Quote ="tad rhino"of course we need new blood, i said that 2 years ago. but we are a shambles. a good coach will organise a team.'"
And once the game kicks off he is entirely reliant on the players being able to stick to the instructions and gameplan he's given them.
I doubt that anywhere in McDermott's gameplan does it include dropping off one-on-one tackles, being unable to pass the ball in a backwards direction when linking into the line or generally standing around at marker like a lost kid in a school playground.
If the players don't execute, even the greatest coaches are stuffed. Right now, too many Leeds players don't look like being capable of executing even the basics that are asked of them - run, catch, pass and tackle.
Too many players whose careers have past their peak and are on a downward slide, supplemented by youngsters who aren't quite there yet.
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| Quote ="Andy Gilder"And once the game kicks off he is entirely reliant on the players being able to stick to the instructions and gameplan he's given them.
I doubt that anywhere in McDermott's gameplan does it include dropping off one-on-one tackles, being unable to pass the ball in a backwards direction when linking into the line or generally standing around at marker like a lost kid in a school playground.
If the players don't execute, even the greatest coaches are stuffed. Right now, too many Leeds players don't look like being capable of executing even the basics that are asked of them - run, catch, pass and tackle.
Too many players whose careers have past their peak and are on a downward slide, supplemented by youngsters who aren't quite there yet.'"
Maybe better defensive structures and tactics would mean less one-on-one tackles to be made and as such fewer players dropping off the tackle in a one-on-one tackle. Maybe better attacking structures and tactics would mean we wouldnt need to be throwing out long flat passes from fullback for them to be thrown forward. Maybe, like Warrington we could be looking at shorter flat passes putting players through the gaps created by a structured attack.
Maybe we wouldnt be dropping so much ball if we werent trying to pass in traffic to our centres inside our own 20 against fresh defences.
I dont doubt that McDermott's gameplan doesnt include the bad things we are doing but im not confident that they arent an unintended consequence of it.
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| I must admit when I heard we had appointed McDermott I was far from happy knowing his record at Harlequins. All I could assume is that during his stint previously as assistant coach at Headingley he showed enough talent and ambition to convince GH that with a better squad (most of ours had being involved in 3 winning Grand Finals on the trot) that he was Bluey's natural successor.
I must admit the recent signings have been at best third rate, Hauraki,Cross,Delaney - average players at best, not worth using up oversees quotas on. If we are signing players from oversees then they have to be better than waht we can sign from Super League, else theres no point at all.
Another point is Im not sure how fit we are..when i watch Wigan,St Helens,Warrington and most of all Huddersfield - we seem light years behind. The line speed is far quicker than ours.
Im sorry but listening to McDermott's after match interviews just infuriate me. He looks like a coach who uses his arrogant behavior to prevent any worthwhile questions being asked !!! he clearly doesnt want to be there, so why bother at all !!!
Questions like "If Burrow needs a rest, give him a rest and let McShane play" "Where is Clarkson lately" "Where is Cross lately"
You can only play so many lightweights in ur pack and get away with it - Ablett,BJB,Hauraki,Sinfield - they just dont have the muscle power to worry opposition forwards, and the masterplan of offloading at every possible opportunity to "tire out the opposition" is an absolute joke and if thats the best McDermott can come up with then im afraid its time GH gave him the hard word
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| what is graham murray doing is he out of the game? i'd have him back in a flash he moulded a team of a few jouneymen some good young kids and a few good internationals and turned them into quite a team, as terry newton (rest his soul) states in his book he was the coach who came up with the 2 hooker system which most teams now use and that he was the best coach he played under.
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| Gotcha,
What did you think of the group of players at Warrington before Tony Smith's arrival?
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