achieved more as a team member, and he was a good squad member until the last year or so.
three hit up last week acceptable you think?
peacock and singleton ran there blood to water last night while he did virtually nothing.
you think he was better than any of murrays pack then you are more deluded than anyone thought. and that would take some doing

Agreed.He wouldn't have fit in at all, and stood out like a sore thumb for the shirker he is in the pack we had back then.

reminds me of chris feather. had everything to be absolute quality except for his heart, size of a pea.
compare that to burrow who gets hammered every week but still comes back for more

Agree about the halves being poor and I'd extend that to include hooker too. I'd also lay some blame at the door of forwards not providing enough support runs. There was just a lack of movement in general.

Disagree about Hall. I think it's his brain and reading of a game that makes him such an outstanding winger.

Being a team member is all you need to be in order to archive things. As an individual player Kirke might not have been as great as other individuals at the club in the past but this sport isn’t about individuals – It’s about the team. Personally I don’t think any player has disgraced themselves this year for Leeds but just had bad games like every other player in Super League. If you want to see unacceptability in this league then look at the cricket score lines that several clubs have conceded throughout the season. To conclude Brian McDermott’s pack IMO is better than Graham Murrays pack and the current one just happens to have Ian Kirke in it.

peacock apart, and maybe JJB, nobody else would have got into murrays pack.
just my opinion mind

thats the thing,he has the size and frame to do so much more than he does but it seems like he doesnt ever want to do anymore than the bare minimum.The sad facts are we can and we have carried Kirke while our front line props are about in JP and Kyle (and Bailey to some extent) allowing him to do just that, but when they are not there he simply cannot up his game to the required level.On the flip side Singleton has done just that and it would be a real shame if he sacrafised when all our players are fit.

I think Murray would have liked Kylie and Delaney. Whether they'd have displaced what we had I don't know, but they have the sort of no nonsense physicality Murray's pack had. It was attitude as much as ability that made that pack (which isn't to say they weren't also good players).

1999 Cup Final pack:

8. Fleary
9. Newton
10. McDermott
11. Morley
12. Farrell
13. Glanville

Subs - Mathiou, Jackson & Hay

2012 Grand Final pack:

8. Leuluai
9. Burrow
10. Peacock
11. JJB
12. Delaney
13. Bailey

Subs - Kirke, Griffin, Ward, Lunt

If I had to choose I know which pack I'd have.

So yet again the question remains why then does he still get selected??



The vast majority on here continue to be bemused..... even his supporter(s) must acknowledge that his so called assest of not giving away penalties and being 'safe' is purely because he does not bluddy well get involved. It's a disgrace.
As you fear no doubt he will continue to be selected at the expense of the far more effective Singleton.

Delaney yes. kylie at his peak again yes but now. way past his best

The 99 bench gives me the shivers though.

Awesome player.

The problem for leeds when it comes to the playoffs and trying to win the grand final is hooker.

We don't have buderus to start, we don't have lunt off the bench.

Mcshane is too inconsistent and he doesn't direct the team around the park correctly, certainly not well enough for a playoff and grand final situation.

All the rivals, wigan warrington hudds and saints have better options. The failure to make the lunt deal permanent or to replace him could well cost us the title this year.

The best we can hope is that mcguire get's at least 80% fit, and burrow can go to hooker as at least he provides better direction and has bags of experience.

I think people are in for rude awakening in the playoffs, a very rude awakening indeed.

Burrow at hooker is part of the problem,he takes at least two steps sideways before he passes,by which time the defensive line are on the intended receiver,hardly any wonder McShanes confidence looks shot when he's out for large parts of a game.

The one which battered the much vaunted Warrington front six into submission last October ?

we have never replaced buderus. we need a top quality hooker and stop messing around with different people there every week

In terms of comparing the 99 and Current packs JP and JJb/Delaney would imo replace Mathiou and Hay but Kirke wouldn't be good enough to wash the jock straps.

But he's the best of a bad situation. We are better with burrow at hooker than mcshane, but the damage has already been done by the faillre to replace buderus and then lunt.

Have to agree to disagree on that one.I agree with the fact we should have signed Lunt.

Burrow can't pass from DH its either fired into someones face or at their boot laces when we try to play quick at the ruck otherwise its easily read when he runs 30 yds sideways because the defensive line is set.
The best way to utilise RB at 9 is as a replacement from the bench as shown v ST's.
I've no doubts at times he's not helped by lack of runners/options butthat doesn't disguise what he lacks as a 9 the same with Mcshane in that he doesn't always read the situation or similar to RB trys to go it alone far too often and cant do a full 80.
Also how slow and predictable is the outwide play that goes through JP ??
The team are capable there's no doubts about that but since Wakey away we've plodded through games when we should be burying the opposition and last night we got exactly what we deserved and again highlighted the same problems we've seen tie after time this year.

Have to agree hooker is our biggest isue at the moment.I still think we have a great chance to get to OT again even with the current situation if we can get some of our injured players back but that shouldnt mask over the fact that Burrow is a half back who can be used as an impact hooker at best.

Surely Mac has seen enough after this year to decide on if McShane , who is 23 now, is the answer moving forward.all evidence points to no, so we need to move him on and find a better alternative for the sake of both parties.

A fascinating question , for which there is probably no straight forward answer.
Unfortunately you have me thinking which combination of those packs would be the best, I would start off with a young Adrian Morley in my team, I am still mulling over the rest

I don't think that many from Murray era would get into this current Leeds pack and if I had to combine the two for the best of both teams it would be more bias towards this era. The dead certs IMO for that combination would be Peacock, Leuluai, Delaney, Morley & Newton. It'll be intresting to see what peoples ideal combined pack would be!

Just checking, so people would rather see a 52-30 scoreline, soft, limited skilled tries, No defence, no determination in defence and games where refs blow the pea out of their whistle resulting in a lopsided result then the one last night?

There were 2 excellent tries scored last night, one by Lovegrove and Watkins 2nd try which was absolute class off the cuff stuff testing the likes of Sinfield's capabilities and to his credit he came out on top with his kicks.

Some people think the league's not competitive yet in the same breath bemoan this scoreline.

I agree the standard of SL is not what it was..but last night was a 'proper' game. I certainly don't want to see penalty tries, team warnings, sin-binnings and all that crap. You don't see the ref and the result normally ends up how it should be, FWIW if you'd had nicked it, i'd have been gutted but still come on here stating what a tough game it was.

Good luck for the rest of the season.