Apart from Suttcliffe can pass.

As I said he will be better in the line

He's better at busting the set line and getting through a gap.

Is that positive not good enough to outweigh his negatives, which I don't think are too bad at all. His defence he's a good size and speed and can tackle. He's looked fine under the high ball too. The one thing is obviously positioning but that I'm sure will improve with time and a pre-season under his belt learning this new position.

I doubt he'll ever be as good as Hardaker defensively but I still think he'll be good enough defensively.

If he was playing for Wigan yes it would be but Leeds don't play that structured attacking style - can he break the line like Hardaker did?

Time will tell but it is a downgrade IMO - he is very inexperienced and the jury is still out

A full pre-season learning the position and a more settled side around him will be the key.

Lets not forget he's coming off the back of a very nasty knee injury and it took Disko nearly 2 years to get his sharpness back.

Who is going to be his teacher to learn from?

Wrt Sutty he'll prove his worth imo either at FB or if he's moved back to 6.
Given an injury free run in a settled side i think he'll go on to be a quality player for us.
There are issues though we need at least 1 HB & a "linebreaking" Prop/SR.
Mags/Burrow are way past their best Lilley is still learning & our pack is carrying plenty of 30+'s on a downward injury prone spiral.

Depends on which way he wants to build himself out I suppose.

Attacking or defensive.

Though who he will learn the nuances from is a mystery. Youtube maybe?

That's a key point wrt Lilley as well imo Eaton was never anything but a journeyman PT HB.
There's a lot of potential/talent i dont trust this Coaching set up with.

Ferres is a top back rower as is Ablett when fit, there aren't many I would take in SL over them two.Throw ward back in the mix and I really do think you are wide of the mark on it being a weak areas for us, but you are entitled to your opinion.

Sutcliffe is a wait and see player for next year, Not many get close to Zak as a defensive FB but like others have pointed out, he brings plenty more to the table in the other areas that Zak was deficient in particularly ball in hand.

While both great players in their day I am not sure what a HB like Lilley can learn form them, apart from professionalism. He is not likely to put on 10m of pace by watching old GF replays.

Sut, or any other SL fullback for that matter, wouldn't get close to Zak's 2015 defence. He might well improve on his 2016 efforts though when, as well as looking low on confidence and high on indecisiveness, he also looked simply reluctant to run any risk of getting hurt.

Given he was playing jabbed up until May ,without any kind of pre-season & in a new role for a Team in woeful form devoid of any inspiration on/off the pitch i think that's way ott.

There are always reasons behind poor performance and the ones you list are perfectly valid. But to assume automatically that Sutty's defence will be inferior very much depends on which period of Zak's career you wish to focus upon.

Let's be fair, Lilley is young and clearly has not got the skill set (yet!) to be a top quality leader and playmaker for Leeds. My concern is how he goes about "learning" the skills he is missing. No doubt Maguire and Burrow have in the past, and to a certain extent still have some great skills set. Great players though, rarely make great coaches. Mentors maybe, facilitators of learning often less so. Who at the club specialises in how people actually LEARN.

I am a coach myself, admittedly not rugby but it doesn't really matter as it's still skill acquisition at the end of the day. What environments bring out movement changes, how do players learn best, how can they perform skills in context with the actual game of rugby league. These are the questions I hope the coaching staff all have as basic skill sets themselves.

Do Leeds behind all their "whistles and bells" actually have really quality coaches? I don't know the answer to this. I have seen some of the Embedded Pathway coaching and I am not entirely convinced by some of the methods. I appreciate Leeds haven't signed up to this but I would be intrigued to see what methods our coaches employ. Are we merely seeing players come through as a result of a simple numbers game?

Humans are clever (!) and set the appropriate tasks can self organise. This way is proven to facilitate the learning of new skills better than the "do this" "do that" approach that sadly seems a pre disposed trait of ex/current players trying to pass on knowledge. Are the coaches who develop these young "talents" highly educated in skill acquisition or are we seeing a culture of "we have always done it this way" beginning to rear its ugly head??

Just my thoughts but would be interested to hear others.

In all honesty mate i aren't focussing on any part of Zaks Leeds career he's on his way out.
My thoughts are purely about Sutty & his future at FB if he stays there.


The Coaching side does concern me not just collectively but individually like FB 6 ,7 etc but i do think Sutty will prove his worth given the time & backing etc.

Wow. Here's one for end of year review.

Great post



I'll let the more vocal ones on here expand on some of the other points, I'll go on this



This is a big question. We had arguably one of the standout academy's a few years ago (still do to some extent) yet we seem to have lost a bit of momentum, it does seem that we have stalled and not evolved. Some have said this started when we went down the "jobs for the boys" route of handing the academy reins to Barrie and the recent crop are a testament to this.

I know there are a few with an inside track on this subject on here, so in the tradition of answering a question with another question what do they think is the reason? if that could be ever be as simple as that!

A very good post. I can only comment based on my own, limited (2 years) experience coaching, but there is IMO a real issue with the coaching at junior level.

Its hard to knock anyone who puts time in at their local club, but I have come up against a lot of teams/coaches who are happy to stick to what they are good at rather than push the envelope and develop skills such as passing, organisation, line running etc, instead preferring to rely on the age old give it to the big lad or repeated scoot from dummy half, that's before getting into coached cheating or dirty play.

I've had a real focus this year on rounded skill sets, as well as organisation and playing 'good rugby' we haven't won every game, but bar one or two, I think we've played the most team oriented game, and the lads have come on leaps and bounds. (Even if parents don't stictly notice, but that's another issue!)

The other issue I've noticed, certainly at our age group (tens) is a lot of teams very short on players.

I suppose all this must have a knock on effect further up the line in terms of number and quality of kids going into academies in the first place.

For me we shouldn't even have the question "is his defence going to be as good as Zak"......it should simply be "is his defence going to be good enough", I have no reason to think it won't be. I see nothing in his abilities/attribrutes that are an obvious weakness in that regards. His main weakness at the moment for playing FB is just his lack of experience in the role but that surely will improve with time, a preseason under his belt there, and more games.

If the prerequisite for a new FB is that he has to be as good defensively as Hardaker then we'll be searching for one for a long time.

Our first choice pack including subs is as good as anyone , our centres and wingers are as good as any other team , we may get away with Sutty at fullback the jury is still out on that one . Where we will lose out is the crucial positions of halfback and coach .

Very good points. Sutcliffe has quality. He looked very good before his injury. I hate to do this but I am tending to now agree with JC, who some time ago suggested his best position would be centre. I don't think he looks relaxed or happy at FB but when he sits out on the right when playing 6 he looks very natural there.

I think if he has the desire to improve he can be a brilliant 6 as he has all the attributes for it. If he keeps working on his kicking game and game management (which should come with more games anyway) then I think he could become an international mainstay.
If he doesn't improve then he may well end up at centre or possibly fullback.

Or Featherstone...