Bailey was as dominated as all the other forwards (JP included) but he did earn possession four times with turnovers.

Not much else positive to sat about any of the other forwards.

PS Kirke's work rate much better if ineffective this week.

Sinfield's performance was rather worrying. Where was his usual world class level of orchestration and direction of the team? I've become so used to the world's best player guiding the team around to such an expert degree of supermarionation to which Gerry and Sylvia Anderson could only ever dream about.

He needs to lift his game sharpish... not only for the Rhinos but also for England in the RLWC next month.

I wonder if any of the old guard will ever lose their place to a young player?Something has got to happen in the near future.

Obsessed. Did he bully you at school, steal your lunchbox or something?

Or is it his record as the greatest captain in history (six title wins) that eats away at you so much ?

Who gives a monkeys about england. I'm just looking forward to seeing the [ireal[/i top quality players, in the green and gold.

Right?

Last tackle plays were shocking, we were never properly organised and the responsibility for that doesn't just lie with sinfield.

The play off system is a marathon and you don't win a marathon by sprinting off at the half way mark. HTH

Well said.

It was only the week previous to this, after the win at Wigan, that all the boards were producing threads saying we were the team to beat again and Wigan were finished for the season.As we see a week is a long time in sport and things have flipped around.Thankfully we still have our chance to put things right this week with a tough test against the Saints and i am confident we will.

For all their whooping and big ups all Warrington have won so far is week off, which history tells us is not really what you want at this stage.

Yes Leeds appeared to be off the pace of the game on Saturday

but as I said before this is a 5 game series or a 400 minute Marathon for Leeds.

No point in using up all your juice at this stage.

Good thread this. From a Warrington point of view I thought that Peacock seemed to be battling the entire Wire pack at times. All credit to him for playing at all after what's happened, but I thought that McDermott kept him on for too long asnd then gave him a very short break. He earned a lot of admirers in the Warrington crowd and is my Man of Steel by a mile. Kylie looked knackered from the first minute and Delaney was obviously not fully fit. Bailey only took the ball up six times during the game and as you didn't have a lot of power on the bench that should be a worry.
The biggest danger for us was Rob Burrow. He caused problems throughout the game, but your free scoring left wing partnership was simply kept very busy by Benny Westwood.

Given that if we are to progress to the final we will have to play and beat Warrington at some stage to retain our crown...therefore do you want to reveal your full game plan in advance.

For me the big test this year will be on Friday night. Saints seem to have quietly gained some form and momentum recently.

They have, but you can't judge them by the HKR game on Saturday. Rovers were awful.

I bet Juan Cornetto has been having a good tugging session since Saturday. Kirke made 11 carries, and still made 20 tackles. That is some super human effort, considering he said last week you couldn't do that.

The fact the return was poor doesn't matter.

Do you know how his stats compared with the other forwards

It's on the super league site. Quite favourably actually. What it did highlight though is the more carries he makes the less metres per carry he does. Which backs up the theory of his previous stats skewed by kick returns relative to few carries.

Also highlights how the returning unfit players were key to the defeat. Missed tackles and errors from them.

Thanks

Quote ="Gotcha"It's on the super league site. Quite favourably actually. What it did highlight though is the more carries he makes the less metres per carry he does. Which backs up the theory of his previous stats skewed by kick returns relative to few carries.'" Kirke (in the Regular Rounds) averaged 6.92 carries for an average of 7.32 metres gain. His lowest metres per carry (4.56 and 5.10) came in games when he made more carries than his norm (9 and 10) while his best metres per carry (13.5, 10.67 and 10.25) all came in games when he made much fewer (2, 3 and 4) and at least one of those was down to the prodigious Pat Richards drop-outs at the Etihad Stadium. Last Saturday's game at Warrington (4.73 metres averaged from 11 carries) would appear to fall into that same pattern A Kirke/Opta observation from the recent Wigan game can be found here: viewtopic.php?tsmp=1379258723&f=17&t=558195&p=17563411&sid=24c6b72c8d24993b689d9f22ee1e720d#p17563411

Quote ="Gotcha"It's on the super league site. Quite favourably actually. What it did highlight though is the more carries he makes the less metres per carry he does. Which backs up the theory of his previous stats skewed by kick returns relative to few carries.'" Kirke (in the Regular Rounds) averaged 6.92 carries for an average of 7.32 metres gain. His lowest metres per carry (4.56 and 5.10) came in games when he made more carries than his norm (9 and 10) while his best metres per carry (13.5, 10.67 and 10.25) all came in games when he made much fewer (2, 3 and 4) and at least one of those was down to the prodigious Pat Richards drop-outs at the Etihad Stadium. Last Saturday's game at Warrington (4.73 metres averaged from 11 carries) would appear to fall into that same pattern A Kirke/Opta observation from the recent Wigan game can be found here: viewtopic.php?tsmp=1379258723&f=17&t=558195&p=17563411&sid=24c6b72c8d24993b689d9f22ee1e720d#p17563411

You really need to read more carefully. My point was that there is a limit to what you can do if your minutes on the field are limited. So to make judgements without knowing the minutes is unfair. This last week I guess he was on the field for longer.

That could go someway to explaining the scoreline

The following are the stats you asked for.

1) Kylie.. 6.28 m/c 44m in 7 carries
2) JP... 5.7m/c 171m in 30 carries
3) Kirke 4,72m/c 52m in 11 carries
4) Delaney 4.21m/c 59m in 14
5) Ablett 4m/c 44m in 11
6) Singo 4m/c 20m in 5
7) JJB 3.82m/c 42m in 11
Last) Bailey 3.17m/c 19m in 6

Your estimate of how long Kirke was on at Wigan (like some others) was way off and so any extrapolation of the Opta stats with regard to involvement per minute for Kirke from the Wigan game would presumably likewise be way off.

Now this week for the Warrington game you're guessing he was on for longer. Could be worth a look.

I suppose it was a coincidence (you do seem to like a coincidence) that all the other forwards were way down on their average metres per carry too. I can understand why you would wish to mention this. Perhaps your theory overlooked the very fast (and offside) charging Warrington defence on this occassion. But then like the very important minutes played stat, I bet it's also missing from the spreadsheets.

You can choose to believe this unproven theory or you could consider that all our forwards also made far less metres per carry than they normally do in this match and Kirke still had the 3rd best m/c. Would it be too far fetched to think the Warrington rushed defence and offside had anything to do with it?

My estimation was just that. My estimation. The Opta stats do not include the important minutes per match and their interchange records (like the Leeds site) are always incomplete so I only give my estimation and accept it could be wrong. That is why I argue against critical judgments made against players for a low number of carries if they have made a reasonable number of tackles in a limited time on the field.

There was a wider observation re Kirke's high and low metre per carry games which looked beyond this one encounter - that this one encounter appeared to fall in line with could be just one of those coincidences but there again it might reflect the observation that making fewer carries a game can distort the outcome. Have you analysed the legality and defensive line speeds in those other encounters also?

As for minutes - at least one of us will occasionally make an effort to ascertain some, even though it's not the one who places the biggest emphasis on it before often reaching questionable conclusions.

Quote ="Juan Cornetto"My estimation was just that. My estimation. The Opta stats do not include the important minutes per match and their interchange records (like the Leeds site) are always incomplete so I only give my estimation and accept it could be wrong. =#0000FFThat is why I argue against critical judgments made against players for a low number of carries if they have made a reasonable number of tackles in a limited time on the field.'" Then are you yourself defending without also knowing the length of a stint? Now that you hopefully do know (and to the second thanks to some helpful contributor - viewtopic.php?f=17&t=558195&tsmp=1379426559&start=55) how long Kirke played at Wigan are you standing by your judgement of his effort in that game - which included the novel 'you can't make tackles on defence and be expected to carry the ball in on attack when you're a prop' , it's just that you haven't returned to the thread in question almost as if you are trying to avoid it - and I know that won't be the case here.

Quote ="Juan Cornetto"My estimation was just that. My estimation. The Opta stats do not include the important minutes per match and their interchange records (like the Leeds site) are always incomplete so I only give my estimation and accept it could be wrong. =#0000FFThat is why I argue against critical judgments made against players for a low number of carries if they have made a reasonable number of tackles in a limited time on the field.'" Then are you yourself defending without also knowing the length of a stint? Now that you hopefully do know (and to the second thanks to some helpful contributor - viewtopic.php?f=17&t=558195&tsmp=1379426559&start=55) how long Kirke played at Wigan are you standing by your judgement of his effort in that game - which included the novel 'you can't make tackles on defence and be expected to carry the ball in on attack when you're a prop' , it's just that you haven't returned to the thread in question almost as if you are trying to avoid it - and I know that won't be the case here.