Source please?

Quite. had I been using phrases like "can't argue with" etc you'd have a point. I haven't and, as usual, you don't.

What a pearl of wisdom.

I have some concerns about the lack of experience at halfback for this game, but the two lads who are there are exciting players who can make some things happen in attack. Both have big futures at this level I think, if they continue to develop well, so let's see how they go. Yes McGuire and Burrow have played well this year and might feel a bit miffed at not playing, but they'll get over it and both will no doubt get other chances. I think Sinfield will have a huge reponsibility for the structure of the game on Saturday, and hopefully he can do what he does so well much of the time for Leeds, which is get the shape of the side right, do the basics well and afford his #6 and #7 the freedom to express themselves.

I've been quite critical of England/GB coaches who've been afraid to give young, exciting, unpredictable attacking players a chance in the past. We can debate issues of form for individual players etc all we like, but I'm not going to complain too much now I've got my wish and these lads are being given a chance. Let's see how they get on.

Enlighten us.

What are these special attributes that you have to have to play international rugby, and more importantly how many players in and out of Tony Smith's Four Nations squad actually have them?

What! Players like kevin sinfield who you and your fello goons have slagged off for years but have now lost your voice now he's shut you all up for at least a week?(add the stains massive to that list too)

I have mentioned them throughout this thread, mental toughness and strength, McGuire lacks this as does Sinfield, although as a hooker last week i have to say he played very well.

Players like Sean O'Loghlain may not be the most talented players domestically but are suited to International Rugby. Peacock, Morley, Burgess, Westwood also have it, but most of the team going into Saturday are inexpirienced but showing some signs of it, the future is in there hands.

Players like McGuire and to a lesser extent Burrow also showed this early potential but when put to the test in a Test match have failed, and that is the reason they are not involved.

See my post above.

I Don't really think anyone omitted from any of Tony Smiths squads would be losing to much sleep. unless of course they enjoy being dictated to.

what a load of total cobblers!!

Exactly on what scale are you measuring mental toughness?

A Rubik's cube.
If you're going to play international RL, you must have the mental strength and toughness to be able to solve a rubik's cube.
That's why Ryan Hall will become the greatest RL player of all time.
If only the RFL had their scouts watching Swapshop in the early 80s, England could have been unbeaten since then.

Quote ="sgtwilko"what a load of total cobblers!! Exactly on what scale are you measuring mental toughness?'" www.sciencedirect.com/science?_o ... b67b38520d Here is a nice explanation that I had the pleasure of helping with.

Quote ="sgtwilko"what a load of total cobblers!! Exactly on what scale are you measuring mental toughness?'" www.sciencedirect.com/science?_o ... b67b38520d Here is a nice explanation that I had the pleasure of helping with.

You are talking about a player who was made the youngest SL skipper of a club starved of success and underachieving.
Yet he's had the "mental toughness" to lead us to 4 titles!
Add to that a SO who at every turn has been deemed nothing more of a support player yet has played an integral role in our success.
You fella are talking bollox.
Mcguire was rightly dropped on performance but to question the mental toughness of 2 players who have achieved what they have is pure sh#te.

Which is exactly the point they lack the levels required to take it to the International performance, but have enough to cope with the domestic game where there full ability is rarely tested.

Clearly you are one of the Leeds fans unable to distinguish between different levels of competition that i mentioned earlier.

I know what mental toughness is but I think it is total bullsh* t that you A: think mcguire, burrow and sinfield arnt made of the right stuff but people like Westwood, burgess, tomkin and eastmonds have it even though they have done pretty much nowt at any level other than as kids! and B: you seem to have a rating system for something that is pretty much impossible to judge!

Sorry pal you are full of it!

I wasn't discussing McGuire in the posts you've quoted. I thought we were talking about Myler and his selection/non-selection - no idea why you brought up McGuire other than a feeble attempt to try and irritate a Leeds supporter.
You then have just used some mumbo-jumbo about hidden inner qualities and told me to go ask Langer and Stewart something.


You still haven't given me any logical reason why you would have dropped Myler. If Eastmond and Tomkins are so obviously more suited to international football why were they not selected to begin with and why have we not tried to develop a settled half back pairing, crucial for us to compete with any team, let alone Australia and NZ?
What did Tomkins do sitting in the stand against the French that convinced Smith that he would perform better at 7 than Myler? I have no idea what Mylers form or game time over the season has to do with that singular decision.

And with that you make a total fool of yourself once and for all.

That post will go down as one of the most innacurate in RLfans history..

Sorry to disagree, but whatever else various players may lack for the international arena (and I'm not saying McGuire and Burrow etc should definitely be in the England team) the one thing I believe Leeds' recent successes have been built on more than any other is the very mental strength you've talked about. I think they've shown themselves more resilient, more composed and tougher in that regard at the crucial moments than any number of rivals who are a match for them on the proverbial paper.

I'm not saying they should be in the team, and I'm happy to get behind the one that starts on Saturday, but I do think you're mistaken if you think mental toughness is an area where those lads don't have what it takes.

no we understand that some players arnt cut out for international rugby league who are good domestic players! But clearly the science and actual facts to back up your argument simply don't exist! it's a theory without evidence! so you are peddling crap

I have put this in several posts now but as you clearly cannot see the points made i will have to make the point like so

MYLER WAS SEEN TO BE AN ORGANISING HALF, THIS WAS HIS MAIN ATTRIBUTE THAT OTHER HALVES WERE DEEMED BY SMITH TO LACK. MYLER WAS DROPPED FROM HIS CLUB TEAM FOR NON PLAYING REASONS, HENCE IN A GAME VS FRANCE THAT WE WERE NEVER GOING TO LOSE THE IDEA WAS CLEARLY TO GIVE HIM A CHANCE TO WIN BACK THE SHIRT HE HAD EARNED WITH HIS PERFORMANCES EARLIER IN THE SEASON. HE WAS ASKED TO DO A SPECIFIC JOB WHICH IS WHY HE WAS SELECTED OVER EASTMOND AND TOMKINS AND WHY HE GOT THE FIRST CRACK, LEAD THE TEAM ROUND THE FIELD AND ORGANISE THEM. HE TOTALLY FAILED TO DO THIS WHICH IS WHY HE WAS DROPPED. THE ATTRIBUTES HE DID OFFER IN HIS 2 TRIES WERE NO BETTER THAN THOSE SHOWN WEEK IN WEEK OUT BY BOTH TOMKINS AND EASTMOND, AND NEITHER WAS HIS ABILITY TO ORGANISE HENCE HE WAS DROPPED.

The Langer and Stewart reference does back to you claiming you should not be dropped off one poor performance and harping on about pressure at this level. Langer and Stewart were both World Class halves who knew of they failed to perform they were gone, and the other would get there place. There is no room for sentiment at this level if you are to be a success, and players that cannot handle the pressure of International rugby like McGuire deserve to go.......as did Smith and also justifies the non selection of Burrow and Pryce.

Clearly they do but if you are too ignorant to research them or use your eyes to assess a performance then why should i spoon feed you.

I have given you a starting point.

Jim Golby who published the article i highlighted has been responsible for many psychology based studies on British and touring rugby league sides usually WCC teams and at the Tri Nations, read these and then ignorance can no longer be your excuse.

Why don't you have a stab at answering the questions I asked.
I still have no idea why you seem obsessed with me speaking with Langer and Stewart, but it doesn't matter. Your truly rediculous statement regarding Sinfield having no mental strength has shown you up for the know knowt that you are.

Oh and please, please, please, it's "THEIR" not "THERE".

Bingo.

I wondered when you were going to start running the "O'Loughlin is better than Sinfield because.." argument, it just took a little longer to get there than I thought.

Perhaps Todd Flanders can come back to us when he's had the mental strength to lead a side to three Grand Final victories on the bounce and win man of the match in both major finals?

Mental strength is all well and good, but if that's the sole criteria you're using to pick a team then you'd have had Jane Tomlinson and Steve Prescott at half-back for the last five years. You need to have at least some element of talent to back it up.

I may not be able to spell but you clearly cannot read.

At no point did i say either Sinfield has no mental strength.

Sadly pall if you cannot chose to use the reasons presented to you to form a response then you are clearly a blinkered club man and happy to be so. Which is fair enough.

Not quite spot on. The pack were nowhere near destroyed, the right flank of defence was. He didnt get the ball because we kept kicking it back from restarts.

Where have i said Locky is better than Sinfield? Domestically Sinfield has been massive for Leeds Locky has too for Wigan but has not produced as high a standard of performance at club level as Sinfield. Locky has stood head and shoulders over Sinfield at International level though.

Where have i said mental strength is the sole criteria for picking a team? All i am saying it is a key attribute to have if you wish to consistently compete as an International player.

It seems it is the Leeds fans getting very protective of there players rather than me claiming to be better or worse than any other clubs players, they would not have had domestic success over such a period were they poor players, i am highlighting the fact that they lack in this department to transform there ability to be top International players.

It has nothing to do with club loyalties, not sure why you are trying to spin it that way.