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| Quote ="thebloodbath"I was having a subtle dig at the posters who wanted him removing from the team in place of BJB from the wing to full back on the eve of the Wire game after Webb's performance against Giants.
Maybe that was too subtle for you to pick up on?
It screams fickle and being idiotic. To remove our regular full back from the team and then move a lad who has been doing a good job from his own spot. I don't argue with the fact that BJB is the natural evolution for the team. But the balance and continuity has to come in. No messing about with selection now, time for tinkering is over.
And how did Webb play? Well?
People making snap decisions - that is fickle.'"
Dont worry, I got the sarcasm in your words. Doesnt stop it being pointless though.
For the record, in my view, the natural replacement for Webb when he goes should be Smith. Assuming he sticks around of course.
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| Id go with the team that beat Wire.
Harsh on Ali, but I feel that Hauraki justifies the place on the bench for spare second row. He's been one of our most improved players of the last couple of months
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| Quote ="thebloodbath"I was having a subtle dig at the posters who wanted him removing from the team in place of BJB from the wing to full back on the eve of the Wire game after Webb's performance against Giants.
Maybe that was too subtle for you to pick up on?
It screams fickle and being idiotic. To remove our regular full back from the team and then move a lad who has been doing a good job from his own spot. I don't argue with the fact that BJB is the natural evolution for the team. But the balance and continuity has to come in. No messing about with selection now, time for tinkering is over.
And how did Webb play? Well?
People making snap decisions - that is fickle.'"
Seeing as I was one of those calling for Webb to be moved aside - to both strengthen the team defensively and allow Ablett to come back into the side without losing Lauitiiti out of the 17 - I guess I'll have to defend my comments.
I'll start by saying (barring a five minute spell when he went missing for the high kick that lead to the King try and backed it up by firing a pass to the touch judge on the next set in attack) he had a good game on Friday. If he has another one on Saturday, I'll be equally pleased.
My call for him to be left out wasn't based solely on his performance in the Giants game (where he got pulled from the firing line in the later stages and stuck on the wing). IMO - and that's all it is - he's been defensively mediocre for most of the season. Too easy to turn inside out, getting himself caught in the line too often in goal-line defence, too slow to chase back if someone gets the outside on him, too uncertain under the high ball. Add in his deficiencies in being unable to pass the ball to his left without it going forward, and I reckoned keeping him in the side was too big a gamble for a game where Leeds needed to have everyone performing at 100% to be successful.
He stepped it up on Friday - the problem is, that performance was very much the exception to the norm for Brent Webb in 2011. The challenge now is to get him to repeat it in the heat of a Grand Final.
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| Quote ="Fallon"For the record, in my view, the natural replacement for Webb when he goes should be Smith. Assuming he sticks around of course.'"
Where's your rugby acumen?
Are we in a time warp?
Smith is so far from selection it's un-true. No agendas or stories, just based on performances in the famous blue and amber.
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| Quote ="Andy Gilder"IMO - and that's all it is - he's been defensively mediocre for most of the season. Too easy to turn inside out, getting himself caught in the line too often in goal-line defence, too slow to chase back if someone gets the outside on him, too uncertain under the high ball. Add in his deficiencies in being unable to pass the ball to his left without it going forward.'"
Completely agree with this. It has been a bee in my bonnet for most of the second half of the season. Webb has looked suspect defensively. In the Wire game some of his defensive frailties were tested and others weren't, but he did his job. This would be definitely the wrong time to make any major changes, but we shall wait and see what Webb takes the field
Oh and the pass into the stands that went 3 yards forward was by far the worst I have seen.
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| St Helens v Leeds Rhinos 6pm (SKY)
Ref P Bentham TJ T Martin TJ J Child RR S Ganson RTJ C Sharrad VR B Thaler TK R Tennant MC I McGregor
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| Quote ="thebloodbath"Where's your rugby acumen?
Are we in a time warp?
Smith is so far from selection it's un-true. No agendas or stories, just based on performances in the famous blue and amber.'"
I didnt say it would happen, just that out of the players currently at the club I would leave BJB on the wing and play Smith at FB when Webb has gone.
As for your selection comment. Currently McShane is in the same boat as Smith yet with Bud leaving I fully expect McShane to be our number 9 next year. Why when Webb leaves in a year (think that is right??) couldn't Smith be our new FB?
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| Quote ="leeds owl"Have you seen Hardakers tackling stats for the Warrington game, very impressive. 18 tackles made and not one missed. Considering this was a part of his game that some found worrying he was one of our best on Friday, the chase back to collar Briers could have been a defining moment. I think he'd be very unlucky to miss out after his input over the last two games. If he does miss out i'd rather Watkins came in as a straight swap rather than mess the team around to accommodate Lautiti.'"
He has no problem tackling but its his defensive reads that let him down where he leaves a big gap every so often. Im not fussed anyway TBF. I think who ever plays will do a good job.
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| Quote ="Fallon"I didnt say it would happen, just that out of the players currently at the club I would leave BJB on the wing and play Smith at FB when Webb has gone.
As for your selection comment. Currently McShane is in the same boat as Smith yet with Bud leaving I fully expect McShane to be our number 9 next year. Why when Webb leaves in a year (think that is right??) couldn't Smith be our new FB?'"
By the time Webb leaves Smith is likely to have already been gone for 12 months.
What has Smith produced this year which makes him the natural replacement for Brent Webb?
Weird.
Mac didn't even consider Smith for the FB spot against Giants, he played a sick Brent Webb, as we had 'no other options'
BJB will succeed in that role with how things stand at present. With other exciting prospects like Zak and Kallum stepping up (injuries permitting). Shows the future of our outside backs is very healthy.
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| Quote ="thebloodbath"By the time Webb leaves Smith is likely to have already been gone for 12 months.
What has Smith produced this year which makes him the natural replacement for Brent Webb?
Weird.
Mac didn't even consider Smith for the FB spot against Giants, he played a sick Brent Webb, as we had 'no other options'
BJB will succeed in that role with how things stand at present. With other exciting prospects like Zak and Kallum stepping up (injuries permitting). Shows the future of our outside backs is very healthy.'"
Agree we have a good crop of young backs but disagree with your intimated positioning of them. For me you would go;
Smith
BJB
Watkins
Hardaker
Hall
Smith hasnt played this year in part cos I dont think Brain likes him but having watched Smith a few times in the academy he looks heavy and a little bored. That said, the guy has obvious talent. Going to RU was the worst thing he did. At that point he looked at awesome at FB.
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| Quote ="Fallon"Smith hasnt played this year in part cos I dont think Brain likes him but having watched Smith a few times in the academy he looks heavy and a little bored. That said, the guy has obvious talent. Going to RU was the worst thing he did. At that point he looked at awesome at FB.'"
Cringe alert.
Smith is out of favour, his performances that he is in control of have a massive bearing on that.
He does look dis-interested at times and doesn't look athletic. True.
So why have you penciled this case in as Webb's successor? On what basis? Form a few years ago?
This is 2011 and Lee Smith looks dated. He has been back long enough to sort himself out. I thought he would really nail a full pre-season this year and come back all guns blazing. This hasn't been the case.
I'm glad Mac is in charge of our selection policy and not you.
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| Smith needs to do exactly what Bloodbath's saying - work exceptionally hard in the off-season, sort himself out physically and then when picked play well enough to make it impossible for BM to drop him. Or leave if he's not up to that. He's not a big guy, or the fastest - but prior to leaving to RU he was solid in defence, had good footwork and made the most of what speed he did have.
I believe Smith can get back to where he was - but its up to him to get there, not BM to continually pick him just becasue of who he is/what he did in 2009.
Also agree with comments re Webb's performance against Warrington. For much of the game it was like watching Webb from a few years ago - especially his speed and footwork in returning kicks. If anything, BJB at times looked a bit cumbersome in comparison. In fact of the back three, if looking at where to put long kicks against Leeds, they'd all go BJB's way.
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| Quote ="thebloodbath"Cringe alert.
Smith is out of favour, his performances that he is in control of have a massive bearing on that.
He does look dis-interested at times and doesn't look athletic. True.
So why have you penciled this case in as Webb's successor? On what basis? Form a few years ago?
This is 2011 and Lee Smith looks dated. He has been back long enough to sort himself out. I thought he would really nail a full pre-season this year and come back all guns blazing. This hasn't been the case.
I'm glad Mac is in charge of our selection policy and not you.'"
How does a plyer look dated? Does he turn up to training in flares?
I dont dispute at all that Smith has not been the same player he was since 2009 when he went to Union. Its just hugely disappointing that some fans can write a player off so easily. I totally agree he needs a good pre season, lose some weight, get a yard of pace back and perhaps most importantly enjoy his rugby again.
If he can do that I see him as a great FB. Look at his performances in teh big games, awesome. If Brain can get that consistency out of him he will be a great asset to the team.
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| Quote ="Fallon"How does a plyer look dated? Does he turn up to training in flares?
I dont dispute at all that Smith has not been the same player he was since 2009 when he went to Union. Its just hugely disappointing that some fans can write a player off so easily. I totally agree he needs a good pre season, lose some weight, get a yard of pace back and perhaps most importantly enjoy his rugby again.
If he can do that I see him as a great FB. Look at his performances in teh big games, awesome. If Brain can get that consistency out of him he will be a great asset to the team.'"
I'm in agreement with you Fallon. Our best individual fullback performance this season has come from Smith. Smith has always been a confidence player, he get's a run and repays, in and out he's not the same.
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| Thought in last home game of season smith looked good at full back. Looked fit, slim and more interested. Looked good but was dropped straight after. Not suggesting we drop Webb for final, but thought smith in last game started to look like his old self. He looked good in attack and defence
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| For me, Smithy is yesterday's news. A 2007 Smithy would be in the team, the 2011 version is nowhere near. Maybe a new Club,Wakey maybe, could spark him up, and get his career back on course.
As for dropping Delaney to accomodate Ali?  There must be some very odd chemicals being added to the water over in Cheshire to arrive at that conclusion!
This has to be the easiest week for BMD as the GF team picks itself.They've earned the right to be there by their performances against Wire last week.
And with that blend of momentum, experience and pace, I'm starting to get a good feel about this weekend.
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| Agree in that the team this week bar injuries will sort of pick itself. After the last few weeks difficult to drop anyone
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| Smith deserves a decent run in the team in a fixed position (preferable full back). Obviously that isn't going to happen this year. His confidence seems at an all time low, even when he gets in the 1st team and gives a good performance (Wakey at home) he was dropped. Earlier in the season Hauraki was abysmal, yet was given an extended run and is now a different player. I'd be disappointed if we never allow Smith a similar chance. There's a high quality SL player in there somewhere & its up to McDermott to find it!
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| Quote ="Fallon"How does a plyer look dated? Does he turn up to training in flares?
I dont dispute at all that Smith has not been the same player he was since 2009 when he went to Union. Its just hugely disappointing that some fans can write a player off so easily. I totally agree he needs a good pre season, lose some weight, get a yard of pace back and perhaps most importantly enjoy his rugby again.
If he can do that I see him as a great FB. Look at his performances in teh big games, awesome. If Brain can get that consistency out of him he will be a great asset to the team.'"
A player can look dated when evolution sets in. BJB has stepped up and Hardaker is also in front of Smith for selection for centre. Then there is Watkins to account for etc. All these are talented, up to speed and hungry. And are performing on the pitch.
Smith has under-performed and hasn't looked the same player. So true. We are calling it as we see it. It's not writing him off, it's a fair assessment of where he is. But it is down to Smith. His first action plan should be to try and make the 17, he may need to look elsewhere to do that.
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| Quote ="thebloodbath"A player can look dated when evolution sets in. BJB has stepped up and Hardaker is also in front of Smith for selection for centre. Then there is Watkins to account for etc. All these are talented, up to speed and hungry. And are performing on the pitch.
Smith has under-performed and hasn't looked the same player. So true. We are calling it as we see it. It's not writing him off, it's a fair assessment of where he is. But it is down to Smith. His first action plan should be to try and make the 17, he may need to look elsewhere to do that.'"
Your missing the point though. Im not suggesting Smith play on the wing and I think most people always knew he wasnt going to be a good centre. Im saying, Smith, if he works hard could be the natural replacement for Webb at FB who may well elave at the end of next season.
As many have said, Smith looked good recently but was dropped. Ok, one game does not mean he is back to his best but when you give your best game of the season and then get dropped its difficult.
As fpr someone elses suggestion that he goes to Wakey (or somewhere similar I guess), that seems like a terrible career move, up there with going to Union.
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| Quote ="Fallon"Your missing the point though. Im not suggesting Smith play on the wing and I think most people always knew he wasnt going to be a good centre. Im saying, Smith, if he works hard could be the natural replacement for Webb at FB who may well elave at the end of next season.
As many have said, Smith looked good recently but was dropped. Ok, one game does not mean he is back to his best but when you give your best game of the season and then get dropped its difficult.
As fpr someone elses suggestion that he goes to Wakey (or somewhere similar I guess), that seems like a terrible career move, up there with going to Union.'"
You've totally missed my point. I listed youger, on fire, players in positions that Smith has played in that have shifted Smith out of the team. Hence making him look dated.
Playing regular week-in-week-out rugby has to be Lee Smiths goal. We'll see where that happens.
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| Quote ="thebloodbath"You've totally missed my point. I listed youger, on fire, players in positions that Smith has played in that have shifted Smith out of the team. Hence making him look dated.
Playing regular week-in-week-out rugby has to be Lee Smiths goal. We'll see where that happens.'"
Im not convinced you had a point to start with.
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| Quote ="Fallon"Im not convinced you had a point to start with.'"
Solid comeback.
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| Quote ="MjM"Same team, save for Ali coming in for Hauraki.'"
Bingo.
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| Quote ="thebloodbath"Solid comeback.'"
Thanks, took me a while to come up with it.
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