For me LOINERtillidie (primarily a dewsbury fan) is miles away from what most Leeds fans feel about the current situation.

Not accepting that other teams can be better is complete rubbish, this set of players have never won the CC and since 2004 saints, Bradford and Wigan have all won the GF.

The problem for me is knowing that this group can perform much much better than they are, we may be in decline but we are the current champions and beat manly only a few months ago, not being in the play offs at this stage off the season and getting beat at home by 50 would suggest that something is holding us back from performing to our potential.

I've spent most of my adult life supporting Leeds through a very long period where a lot of other teams were significantly better than Leeds. Not a problem with that, it's the nature of sport.

I do agree with Batley though, in that the issue at the moment isn't that other teams are better than Leeds, but that some of us saw this current situation coming a while ago. If we could, then why couldn't the highly experienced and successful sports administrator running the club?

Leeds are falling well short of the high standards they have set themselves, both on and off the field IMO.

Are you talking about the coaching staff or overall? To be fair, the financial position of the club and the quality of the academy set up is as good as its been for a good few years.

Player performance on the field, plus the recruitment and retention decisions made off it. The departures of Senior and Lauitiiti hinted at an understanding that the squad needed to be refreshed. The players brought in and subsequent contract extensions however have smacked of panic.

My opinion is that I will always accept that other teams may be better than us, and that success is usually only short term. However, it pains me to see a club not performing close to its potential.

The first team may not be but the club is performing up to it's potential. There is a large over reaction to an indifferent run of form on the field by the 1st team.

When using the expression "the club" you have to take into account many other things. The apparent rude health of the Academy at all levels at present and the excellent turnover and profit posted by the club in the face of recession.

There isn't a single club in the league that is built on firmer foundations than ours. One only has to look at our near neighbours to realise that. There's no need to over react because the first team are on a bad run of form.

Andy G, if you and others have seen our demise coming for a while when did you first see it? Was last year's title, CC Final and this years WCC within your vision?

There were signs in 2010 that the team was no longer as dominant as it had been during 2007-09, and that Warrington and Wigan in particular were starting to get Leeds's number. The consistently high level of performance that marked out that period became less frequent in 2011, spankings home and away from both Warrington and Saints, then at home to Huddersfield and Bradford in particular raising alarm bells.

The Challenge Cup run in 2011 was hardly indicative of a champion team returning to form, take a look at the standard of opposition. That Leeds needed extra time to see off a mediocre Cas side says little to support your point.

The team managed to buck the trend for the last half dozen games of the season and capitalise on some fortune in the Grand Final. Well done to them for that but it doesn't disguise the fact that over the season as a whole they were now well behind the likes of Wigan, Warrington, Saints and Huddersfield in terms of consistency and quality of performance.

That decline has continued in 2012. Using a home game against a woefully under prepared Manly as evidence of a return to form is a poor attempt at supporting your point. If you want to take games in isolation, why not look at Good Friday, or the games against Saints? Were those games not indicative of a team on the slide falling way behind its rivals?

I know you know and understand the sport G1, are you seriously telling me that you couldn't see over the last 12-18 months the cracks starting to appear in this Leeds side? Did you regard 5th as somehow unrepresentative of the levels of performance last year, and 9th as unrepresentative of them in 2012?

If you are used to drinking champagne a pint of mild is a bit of a come down, and people will grumble.

This is true those though alarm bells sounded a little hollow come season's when it became more universally accepted that the team had simply taken a little time to gel with the new coaches strategies. The alarm bells sound a little louder right now, I'll give you that.

The purpose of the Challenge Cup is to reach the final and win it. There are no extra medals handed out for style points. The team was good enough to reach the final, not quite good enough to win it.

Is a very dismissive way of belittling quite a fantastic achievement. Nor is it accurate. In league and playoff terms it might have been better had you said that Leeds went the last three months of the season losing only once, defeating three teams above them in the league in the playoffs. When it mattered Leeds showed far greater consistency and quality of performance than any of the four teams that finished above them in the league.

Because there wasn't a World Club Championship Trophy up for grabs in any of those other fixtures. I was at the manly game and it was as hard a game and as good an opposition as I've seen this season. The Manly game is indicative that the team remains ahead of it's rivals because none of the team's rivals had achieved the requisite right to play in the game. leeds had.

I think we both understand the sport Andy. We understand another sport, American Football. In that sport are any of the pundits, supporters or players talking about the Champion New York Giants in the same terms that you are talking about Leeds? Can you see the parallels? With two weeks to go, they weren't even in playoff contention. They finished 9-7 and even lost twice to the dreadful Washington Redskins. But they qualified and played well when it mattered, unlike all their rivals. That is the goal. That is the goal in our sport. We met the goal last year. Nobody else did.

Do I recognise that the team is not performing consistently well week in week out as they did in 2009 when topping the league? Of course, it's inescapable. But i also recognise they're good enough on their day to win this competition, despite that. And that will do for me.

I see no demise. I see over reaction to a poor run of form and a set of supporters with very short memories who haven't learned the lessons from just last season. It's nothing new. We've seen it from the same characters during Smith's tenure and even Mclenanns. Of course, the predictable doom mongerers will one day proclaim they were right when this cycle of success comes to an end (I don't include you in that company, even though our outlooks are different I respect your opinion) but they were never right. They were just miserable feckers unable to appreciate or recognize the halcyon period that this administration and set of players have delivered for us.

They're just as bad as the ones that will over react when we string a good run of form together. It's during this period of demise you have seen coming that we've had threads like "Leeds Greatest ever squad", "The best young centre pairing in the comp" and a couple of "will we go the season undefeated" threads.

Manly may not have been fully prepared but they weren't exactly in the same league as the team the Bulldogs put out against us in 2005. The WCC was clearly an intense match that Leeds raised their game for - or do you think they were playing at the same level in that game as they have been in recent weeks?

I'd prefer a Pint of Mild TUMFAM my Friend. We are at present, drinking Bishops Finger!

In terms of on the field performance, if you measure it in any other way than trophies won then we're in decline, and have been for up to two years now.

The overall objective of a sports team is to win trophies, but sometimes winning a trophy can mask definite weaknesses in a team that will have a longer term effect.

This is what last year's GF win did in my opinion.

The way I see it is you are going to fall into one of two camps:

1) You are happy to accept 3/4 of the season watching average to poor performances as long as there is some silverware at the end of it.

2) You'd like to see a cabinet full of trophies but not at the expensive of watching your team under perform for a majority of the season while getting the occasional spanking.

We'd all like to see a combination of great on-field performances coupled with some shiny stuff come season's end but that isn't happening right now.

Personally I think that the approach of easing off during the season to save yourself for the business end is the correct strategy. Since our poor tail offs in 2005 & 2006, we have succeeded in all but 1 of the last 5 grand finals. However, I think the balance last year and this year is wrong. I don't for one minute believe that the club has targeted to finish 7th or 8th. I'm not bothered about the LLS. Without the Sl trophy along side it, its meaningless. But I do expect us to be at least competitive with our rivals during the season. I think the fans are being a little short changed.

If it actually was a [istrategy[/i you might have a point, but hasn't McDermott already stated this season that the team were not happy with 5th last year and wanted to put things straight in that regard?

I don't think for one minute, especially after 2009 when the guys made a big thing about winning the LLS and the GF, that 5th last year was acceptable to anyone at the club - even with the GF win that followed. McD has said in at least one after match interview that he didn't want to "wait till the end of the season for a run of form".
Last year was a one off, we have some champion players who dug deep after pretty insulting treatment. I would be very surprised if normal service isn't resumed again (unless Wigan and Warrington bottle it again) and 1st and 2nd contend the GF.

In #1 you will only find a very small tent full of a strange mixture of gullible band waggoner types, and older aficionados, so desperate to forget the lean years that they have adopted a nelson's telescope approach to the current squad. There may well be a single canoe outside, well stocked with banoffee pie for their lonely journey up that big Egyptian river.....

In#2 you will find a marquee full of your salt of the earth types, who are able to watch and enjoy the game of Rugby league, rationalise and comment on what the see before them, all without getting their knickers in a twist.

It's a simple game, watched by simple people.......why some have to turn it into a drama, I really don't know!

Let's not confuse ourselves here, nobody regularly plays rubbish and wins things. The best teams win the trophies and the best teams play well. 2010 we played average and won sweet FA, prior to 2004 we played average for the best part of 25 years and won sweet FA. There is no "play poorly but end up with trophies" option. You play $h!t you win nothing - the two come as a package. Ask a Wakefield fan.

Leeds did last year.


If Leeds were to win SL again this season from 5th/6th position after regularly playing rubbish/poorly for most of the season, would you be prepared to reconsider that statement above?

Having revoked Sinfield's familial links to the Royal Family along with his knighthood in recent weeks, I suspect the occupants of both camps above shall be eager to reinstate them after wins against Wakey, Cas and London. Other members of the squad shall be similarly reinstated to their positions of pre-eminence.

No. Ask one of your SL whipping boy rabble supporters how many trophies they win by being crap every year or even any Leeds fan old enough to remember pre 2004.

Anyway, you always think whoever wins Stuporleague is rubbish, it's a rubbish competition.

Why do people think we are easing off as part of some great masterplan come playoff time? If we were easing off thinking of September/October time then why are we playing the same guys week-in week-out, the likes of Peacock & Delaney look knackered and still not given a rest. The team selection hardly smacks of a saving ourselves for later philosophy. We are losing because we are playing poor not because of some saving it for later plan.

Another difference this year is that there's not going to be an easy off-form Huddersfield away game in the middle of the playoff run.

Wherever we come 5th-8th, the first game will be winnable. Hull away would be the hardest, otherwise it'd likely be Huddersfield or Hull KR. Not certain wins, but games Leeds should win *if they're on playoff form*.

But then it would likely be St.Helens away then Wigan away to get to the Grand Final, and it's bloody hard to imagine managing that.

There are a lot of reasons why doing it from outside the top four last year was unusual, but a fixture list of Hull(h) Hudds(a) Warrington(a) rather than Hull(a) Saints(a) Wigan(a) was one of them.

I wasn't aware Leeds were whipping boy SL rabble.

Aren't they genuine contenders who (if they were to win SL again this year) will be proving beyond a shadow of a doubt that it is possible to be rubbish (strategic or otherwise) for the most part and still win silverware?

Because I have seen this team peak when it matters many times over the last few years. The difference in intensity between the WCC and the loss against Bradford only a few weeks later is marked. If it was just form these bad games would appear in key games as well. Over the last few years the only key game I have seen perform the way they are at the moment is during the CC final, otherwise they have been bang on in games that matter for the last 5 years, even if they didn;t end up winning all of them

I agree some players look knackered, and if I were trying to save something back for the end of the season I would rotate my squad better both on match day, and week to week.