So if either Tomkins or Eastmond play poorly you aren't going to let your club bias and jealousy creep in and boo them off and complain about them for a week on a message board and demand they never play international rugby again?

McGuire has been on borrowed time since he lost that yard of pace that made him such an exciting young player. His strength was as a try scorer with his backing up ability and the speed not to be caught. IMO he is a scrum half and not a natural 6. (Burrow is a better 7 with a superior kicking game and the ability to run with pace at the defence) Danny is an instinctive player but has never been able to read or control a game the way Sinfield does. He has become an international 6 mainly due to the lack of quality opposition for this position.

All three players that were dropped were guilty of repeated defensive errors against Australia and should have tightened up after the first couple of tries. Had they done so and saved 2 converted tries we would not have lost.

However playing a slow prop in the second row was equally catastrophic and meant that for all of the first half Australia could create an overlap on their left wing. IMO this error and the fact that Smith took until half time to correct it was the main reason we lost the game. He has repeated this same mistake so who will provide the cover this time? If Sinfield is to be used again at acting half then it will have to be Burgess until the 2nd rowers come off the bench

Eastmond has enormous talent and deserves his start. Tomkin is the future and Mcguire has had his chances so I would go along with that also. But I am not a fan of Fox on the wing as he runs sideways too much so I would have retained Smith on the wing as he is tougher and cover for fullback (Although he should not have been in the squad as he is deserting to Union) Bridge at centre is worth a try.

This time our forwards have to step up to the mark because the NZ pack are tough, fit and mobile. Just to bash them up the middle will not be enough.

No and I never did when Pryce Wellens Long Etc failed to in and England/GB jersey.






Can you just give me a hand to get of this very high horse now please.

Your my hero

Correct yet the coach, who planned this hasn't had nearly the roasting these players have had who were playing to his game plan.

Before this tournament started Danny McGuire was the majority of posters first choice no. 6, not just on this forum but most other clubs and the virtual terrace. Many described him as a player who had made the transition from out and out support player & poacher to a player with an all round game and vision, with an excellent kicking game near to the oppositions line. These opinions were based on his form over the last season and performances in the last World Cup, now over the space of 2 games he can't pass, tackle or kick and is slow.

Both McGuire and Tomkins were more effective than Lockyer, who according to those had a nightmare.



Impressed with Sams 3 one on ones though.

Of course he is a favorite at Headingley mainly for past exploits however he has never been my first choice 6 for Leeds, never mind England. I still think McGuire is a good player and he still gets into good positions but he has lost some pace but at Leeds we can afford to play him at 6 when there is Burrow and Sinfield to provide the organisation.

He's a favourite based on performances this past season to. I agree he's lost pace, he doesn't score long distance tries anymore like he used to.

Some of his best games this year were when Burrow was injured and he was forced to get involved more.

after we lose this week/in the final. is the tried, tested and failed logic* going to fall upon tomkins & eastmond?


*utter crap imo, but seems the most common reason why mcguire (and others) shouldn't play

If we win and Tomkins and /or Eastmond play like a turds, do we bring back McGuire?

One less game for McGuire - fine from a Leeds point of view. I guess the coach has to try something.

Be great to see Tomkins and Eastwood tormenting the Kiwis even better to see our centres Shenton and err...thingy powering down the edges.

Be good to get world peace too and an end to famine

Who would be your first choice 6 at Leeds then. Have you watched Leeds play this season? If so then all of the above is a strange statement.

Are serious with this comment?? Yes Lockyer and Thurston had the better backline outside them but the quality of the ball they were giving them was superb. Tomkins is a good player and a excellent prospect but we are getting far too carried away. Lets not forget McGuire had an excellent debut series for GB in 04, but a few injuries over the next couple of years meant he lost a significant amount of speed. It would be interesting to see what would happen if Tomkins has a few injuries and lost his side step or some of his pace (he's not exactaly lightning at the moment anyway.

As someone who has watched him for over four years I have rarely seen him caught from behind.

He is very deceptive because of his long stride. What he doesn't have is lightening acceleration off the mark, but his "second ten" is as good as anyone in the game.

Thats probably fair. Don't know about "anyone in the game" but he's not slow.

I also wonder how having to gain some extra weight will effect his speed.

Why spoil whatever you had to say by saying that?



Reading those stats I fail to see how England managed to lose the game at all.

Yes I have watched Leeds this season and Mcguire for most of his career. Danny has had a good season at Leeds but is an individual player who made his name as a speedy try scoring support player and played at 7 quite a lot in the early days. So my comments are on his role as a stand off and not as an individual player who may be better moving to another postion.

The best 6 we have is Sinfield. (He replaced McGuire at 6 against Australia) Even when he is at 13 he is still playing the 6 role as well as the 13 role and when Web links on the left it is as a stand off. McGuire has had some good games this year but not really by fullfilling the stand off's role and almost always when our pack is on top. His kicking game isn't good enough for a Stand Off, and he doesn't run at the defences and when the opposition is on top he fades from view. He really is a 7 and was a great support player.

The great standoffs (like John Holmes) dictate the play and control the field position. When Garry Scholfield started to lose his pace he improved his skills to move from a poacher (like McGuire) to become a creative provider. Unless Danny can improve his skills to make up for his decrease in pace it is difficult to see him retaining his position at 6 in the Leeds team for much longer.

Turnovers - one which led directly to a try and one right on their line which saw them soon score a try, and the kicking game - look how much more ground Australia made from kicks.

I think that there is one big difference between Tomkins and Eastmond, and McGuire. Last week, Tomkins and Eastmond played for the first time against Australia. This week, they will be playing for the first time against New Zealand. That is not the case for McGuire who has plenty of international experience. Last week, McGuire was shown up by both Tomkins and Eastmond. That means Tomkins and Eastmond need to be given their chance. Either or both may totally c0ck it up and I'm nevous of that for both their sakes because the venom will no doubt be in full flow if that happens. However, I hope that they both rise to the occasion, that they are allowed to play their natural games, that they pair up well together and that they wreek havoc on the Kiwis with their side-steps, changes in pace, kicking games, creativity and do-or-die defence. I want that for them both as individual young players who are facing the world's best and also for the long term health of the English team. If these two do pair up well and give the Kiwis a hard time then we could find ourselves with a fantastic half back pairing for the years ahead. If they don't pair up well and/or if things go wrong with them then a review will be needed, obviously, but surely we should be getting behind these two young men as they have their chance to shine on the international stage rather than holding on to parochial attitudes and petty bitterness?

just think if no leeds players got picked. what would all these other teams fans do with no nasty leeds players to snipe at?

Who next for England coach after the loss this weekend?

Surely not MacBananananarama?

They'd simply snipe at Saints players, like they did last year.

im still in shock that a half back and stand off not as good as two bit part SL players, along with ONE past it centre, a Loose Forward who is neither fast enough, or strong enough, a hooker whose distribution is too slow, and an old prop have managed to win 3 grand finals in a row, and 4 of the last 6


Is this proof opposition fans really do have it wrong about Ryan Bailey?

shows how poor everyone else is.