It’s interesting you mention our “30 minute lull” as I call it. It’s less to do with Walmsley / Lees off and more to do with them going off with Knowles as well. Knowles leads our defensive line and with the three of them off, Roby does it but is slightly less effective due to his age. It was telling that in the semi final Knowles actually played through to 37 minutes and despite you scoring around then, I don’t think we suffered nearly as much from our usual drop off. Next year though, I think the plan will be to bring a fresh Roby on for Knowles, and play his old high energy high involvement game for 20 minutes (rather than being managed through 80 as he is at the moment), which I think will do a really good job at keeping the pressure up throughout the game. It’s part of the reason I think Lussick will go really well for us.

It’s also interesting you single out Dodd as a defensive weakness. In Fages and Lomax we probably have 2 of the best defensive halves in the comp (if not the best) and we have been playing Dodd at hooker for large parts of this year to really focus on his defence, and a lot of his training has been around defending as well. We didn’t keep Richardson because the club weren’t confident he could pick up the defensive aspect of the game like Dodd can, and I’m comfortable with an off-season he will be in good shape. He’s not perfect yet (it wouldn’t have surprised me if Fages was playing if he had managed to push Luke Briscoe out for your second try for example, which Dodd didn’t manage), but it would surprise me if he’s targeted like you would Richardson for example.

I think Mata’utia had a poor start to the season, which has led to our backrow being a little underrated this year (not helped with Bentley missing 90% of the season, and Thompson being … underwhelming). If Mata’utia plays the whole year like he has since the cup final, he will be a dream team second row next year. The other backrow spots are interesting. Obviously we have signed Sironen as a direct replacement for Thompson, but Batchelor is getting better and every game so who gets the 12 shirt is going to be a bit of a pre season battle. Add in Jamie Bell, (Konrad Hurrell), Jake Wingfield and Matty Foster (who impressed on duel reg at Leigh this year) it’s likely to be one of our most competitive positions next year.

Hopoate for Naiqama is a like for like swap so it’s hard to say if it’s something that should/ could be targeted. What I will say is Naiqamas age is starting to show this year and some of the defensive reads he makes when jumping out the line haven’t been as effective. This is where Catalans targeted in our 5 minute disaster class on MW, so I can actually see Hopoate improving this aspect.

Not really sure where you have seen a weakness in Grace (if anything kicking at Coote is a far more effective strategy this year, he’s dropped a couple cold like the first minute of the semi). I will say it’s the bomb to the centres that seem far more effective against us at the moment (again I think Percival dropped one in the lead up to your second try), and again something Catalans used at MW which I hope we have a strategy for this time.

Ultimately the best way to know how we would do against an NRL side is look to the 2020 WCC where we lost to the Roosters 20-12. It was a game of coulda shoulda woulda for us bombing a few opportunities which could have given us the lead. The team is slightly different now (Luke Thompson was awesome for us that night) but if we were to win it again, i really hope to see another WCC to see how we have progressed.

Very good post and a fair analysis.
I agree that Grace is not the weakness and more pressure should have been put on Dodd.
Unfortunately we were too embroiled in (badly) taking on your forwards who simply outplayed ours in every position.
Looking forward to the final which I would say Saints are slight favourites.

Agree on Knowles, I suppose as an 8,10 and 13 that is as good a group as there is in SL. There is an obvious drop at interchange, I think the plan you mentioned with roby could stop some of that. I am looking at it from an NRL point of view and in particular the world club challenge. I think the Panthers pack is decent and I think from the perspective of where you give over the ball it won’t be as easy to have that intense line speed against them.

It isn’t so much Dodd is poor, rather every team attacks the half backs. One of the best in SL isn’t going to cut it against NRL back row options. For example Kikau is above and beyond anything in SL, Clearly and Luai giving him the ball is above anything going on in SL. Dodd can defend, as can Lomax but if you are putting together a game plan then you target them, make them work and eventually make them bite in and go out the back, To’o on the wing for when that happens.

Depends what you want from your back row, I think there is a lack of quality wide running back rowers, esp is SL. By way of example Bentley and Martin against Mata’utia and Sironen, I don’t think there is much in that personally. I think Bentley is a huge gain for us if he can stay fit and a big loss for Saints, appreciate he has hardly been fit this year.

On Grace i think somebody like To’o completely dominates him physically, i also think he rarely gets peppered with high quality kicks in SL, again clearly kicking is another matter to Lui and Leeming. We all know a good kick comes from good field position and if you can do that against Saints then you make them play differently than how they want to. Coote going may have an impact here, he does a lot of kicking for Saints and directs them incredibly well. To me Welsby is a totally different type of player and if Hopoate is there then you won’t get what you get from Coote.

Hopoate is hot,cold and I am not convinced he will go well for you. I say that from watching a lot of NRL. I think he may play full back with Welsby at Centre but we shall see. Again if he is at centre I think he is who you target. Outside backs in SL are clearly nowhere near the quality of those in the NRL. I like Percival and think despite not being a huge centre he stands up fairly well in D.

Quote ="Lprhino"snip as the quoting seems to have gotten squiffy'" You seem to be picking and choosing players from across the NRL to counter example. Yes, if this Saints side played against the Aussie national team, is fully expect a stuffing … but I also expect that as an England fan! We certainly didn’t disgrace ourselves against the Roosters whom have been there or there abouts in the last two years, and despite the narrative some fans seem to have around Saints not being as good as under Holbrook, I think Woolfs Saints are much more “NRL like” and probably wouldn’t fluff some of the chances we did in that game. Whether that’s enough is another conversation, which is why I say I would really like another shot at the WCC next year if we win next week. I will avoid commenting on the Leeds team too much, but I think there is a big difference between Mata’utia/ Sironen and Martin/ Bentley. Not least, Martin/ Bentley are both primarily right sided second rowers and don’t see eithers game translating particularly well to the left side of the field (though could easily be wrong). I said my piece on Bentley when the rumours first arose about him moving (really excellent defender and lots of industry (second best behind Knowles at Saints), but limited in attack and haven’t seen much line running from him in his time at Saints…), and whilst I quite like Martin, he was outplayed by Mata’utia and Batchelor. If Sironen is a hit (as a 17st, 6ft5 wider running backrower should) he will offer us more overall. I’m not sure how Bentley can be a big loss for us, given we have played without him for basically the whole year already? I’m don’t think he would have been the difference in any of the games we lost this year which is surely the measure of “missing” someone? Welsby will be fullback next year, it was already announced by Woolf (https://www.saintsrlfc.com/2021/07/29/w ... k-in-2022/) and if Hopoate doesn’t perform (and I trust Woolf to have the best chance of having him perform) then Hurrell, Simm or Shay Martyn take his place - that’s not bad depth …

Quote ="Lprhino"snip as the quoting seems to have gotten squiffy'" You seem to be picking and choosing players from across the NRL to counter example. Yes, if this Saints side played against the Aussie national team, is fully expect a stuffing … but I also expect that as an England fan! We certainly didn’t disgrace ourselves against the Roosters whom have been there or there abouts in the last two years, and despite the narrative some fans seem to have around Saints not being as good as under Holbrook, I think Woolfs Saints are much more “NRL like” and probably wouldn’t fluff some of the chances we did in that game. Whether that’s enough is another conversation, which is why I say I would really like another shot at the WCC next year if we win next week. I will avoid commenting on the Leeds team too much, but I think there is a big difference between Mata’utia/ Sironen and Martin/ Bentley. Not least, Martin/ Bentley are both primarily right sided second rowers and don’t see eithers game translating particularly well to the left side of the field (though could easily be wrong). I said my piece on Bentley when the rumours first arose about him moving (really excellent defender and lots of industry (second best behind Knowles at Saints), but limited in attack and haven’t seen much line running from him in his time at Saints…), and whilst I quite like Martin, he was outplayed by Mata’utia and Batchelor. If Sironen is a hit (as a 17st, 6ft5 wider running backrower should) he will offer us more overall. I’m not sure how Bentley can be a big loss for us, given we have played without him for basically the whole year already? I’m don’t think he would have been the difference in any of the games we lost this year which is surely the measure of “missing” someone? Welsby will be fullback next year, it was already announced by Woolf (https://www.saintsrlfc.com/2021/07/29/w ... k-in-2022/) and if Hopoate doesn’t perform (and I trust Woolf to have the best chance of having him perform) then Hurrell, Simm or Shay Martyn take his place - that’s not bad depth …

Our spine is completely busted. Miracle we got to semi. Pointless comparing us to a fully fit Saints

Think it’s all been said really.
On the way out my son asked me was it like that when Wigan won everything ?
I thought for a few seconds and said yes, because you knew they would win every big game and the gap would sometimes get a bit smaller but was generally massive.
Saints deserve great credit to do that in the salary cap era.
Wigan were a great side but even as a callow youth I knew signing Ellery, Andy Gregory, Lydon, goodway, Platt, Connolly etc etc was a good idea.

As Nicky Kiss said other teams don’t have the same intensity. I think Woolf has made them more conservative than Holbrook but it’s brutally effective.
The thing that depressed me was in addition to the gap in intensity (appreciate some of this list is based on intensity) was line speed in defence, how fast they run onto the ball, chasing from marker to leg tackle our props, accuracy of passing, numbers in motion, kick chase, handling skills and to my eye conditioning.

I think next year they will be even stronger.

Since 2015, we’ve succumbed to the idea behind the salary cap, the theory of an equal competition. We like many other sides have a mix of talent with some real tripe included. We’ve overloaded on tripe.

However, to date saints have resisted this descent into mediocrity and I can’t see it coming yet. Cleverly signing Lussick before Roby’s legs go the way of his hair.

Sport like many things in life is cyclical. Saints are on top at the moment (along with Cats) but it won’t last forever.

I actually think Catalan will beat them on Saturday.

fantastic post mark

Can't fault Saints.some excellent plays.

Just frustrated with usual issues. Silly penalty/ cards, poor last tackle options,lost ball etc.

We aren’t a million miles off, although it might feel like it after two heavy defeats to Saints.

Myler, Tom Briscoe, Sutcliffe, Gale, Dwyer and Mellor are all going to be under pressure from younger players next year.

To be fair I think a few other sides will improve next season too. I hope our lads get a decent mental and physical break, and I hope Gale, Sezer and others heal up fully… then we need a serious pre-season.

Agree. Reallly curious to know how Sezer's injury is coming along. It would be great to start the season with a full squad, or there abouts.

We’re still a couple of good players short of being a GF potential team imo. Need a gun outside back and replace King.

To do what we did between 2004 and 2017 sucked the life out of the club and it will take a while to recover from that. It's highly possible that if we hadn't lost McGuire and Peacock at the end of 2010 we would be looking at 6 straight GF wins, 5 out of 6 in that period is hardly "bad" though. But it's come at a cost. Key players in key positions simply haven't been replaced with anything even close to similar quality and those players stretching their careers and retiring in a short space of time has been very difficult to deal with.
We are "steady" now. No chance of disaster and clearly playoff potential and competitive to a certain degree.
I don't see enough of this team and the guys coming through to know where the future lies and what it could look like but I do know it needs to get better. How that is done is beyond me. I can't see where players could come from, where we get two high quality halves from, where we get real leadership from, where we get brains and where we get genuinely terrifying strike runners.

A lot of the players in this years squad will be long gone before we really become title contenders I think.

I almost talked myself into seeing a possibility of a Leeds win. You're obviously short in the HBs, a winger & a big back rower. But I think the main difference is the intensity Saints have played at most of the season. It's a different sort of controlled aggression to that which Wane instilled at Wigan. I don't see Agar having that in his coaching. It will be interesting to see what Powell can do with a blank cheque book at Wolfs.

Missed the game on Friday due to work commitments and havent been able to bring myself to watch it and probably won't.
Stopped reading the posts on this thread as I can't accept either the doom and gloom or we are not good enough diarreaoh.
We have played most of this yeart with 1 or 0 halfbacks. Got 2 good ones in for next year and if we have any of them on the field at the same time they will make a huge difference. Almost all teams have had injury or covid issues to deal with but I don't think any have had to deal with them in such critical, pivotal positions as we have. Maybe the exception of Huddersfield.
The kids have shown tonnes of promise and hopefully will only get better. Like most i think we need a prop for next year.
I was underwhellmed when we appointed Agar coach and have been pleasantly surprised ever since. For me he has credit in the bank on keeping the job and look forward to a decent run in an uncomplicated season
Looking forward to the GF and hope Cats can do a number on Saints, all I want to see is a showpiece final whoever wins

What Saints also seem to able to do is keep their young players who are 23/24 before they get a regular spot in the team. Seldom do you see players younger than that playing more than the odd game - Lees/Bentley/Knowles are all 23/24 - Welsby is the exception. Overseas recruitment is on a different level

All good points well made.

Lets take Saints out of the equation tho, our development as a team isnt at Saints' level at this stage. We have been down the bottom of the league for a few years recently. Leeds' 1st aim was to steady, then grow and be more consistent and produce young talent. We are doing that i think. We arent at Saints' level yet and its wrong to compare us with that tho they are clearly the benchmark

Next year we have a top 4, maybe top 2, squad. Weve a lot of highly talented kids developing, far better than any other club in this country, far better. Think about this, in 5 years time Gannon will be only 22, Mikolaj, Cam, Harry, Tommy will be just starting to reach their prime and theres many others Broadbent, Corey etc so Leeds are in a very strong position. The likes of Wigan, Warrington dont have our talent pool and the junior talent pool is drying up.

Our aim next year shouldnt be to beat Saints it should be to target a top 3 finish. We are doing ok. But if we are full strength we wouldnt win at Saints very often but we are capable of beating the rest now and we are still developing as a group.

Still a lot of unknowns in terms of how the youngsters develop imo. There are never any guarantees.

Agreed but the likes of Mikolaj, Newman, Cam, Gannon, Holroyd, Broadbent are all playing in SL to a high standard and are all very young. We are a top 4 squad next year i think. Saints are a level above the rest but we can match the rest I feel.

We are on the right path.

Totally agree with this, except that finishing top-3 is possibly too precise in a competition where every other team is going forwards or backwards, but never standing still. You could argue our true squad position for 2021 is 3rd/4th already. We've hardly had our first choice side out all season.

The bottom-line is for us to control what we can control, and that's incremental gains and improving as a team. If we do that the league table looks after itself.

IF (it's a big IF) we can identify the right quality prop and possibly outside back, AND our young lads can make 5% gains across the board in pre-season, we are going to be different gravy next year honestly. Our execution goes to a different level with the new half-back combination.

Please Leeds, stop messing about with hybrid "middles" and sign another real prop to support Mik and Tom. The "six again" rule is over-hyped; yes your big men need to be fit but that has been the case for a long time. Prop is a specialist position for the hardest men on the field IMO. It's heavy artillery and there is no cheating the mechanics.

Walker, Tindall, Newman, Broadbent, Edwards, Holroyd, Johnson, Oledski, Gannon, Walters, Smith, O'Connor, Mustapha (?) and one or two fringe youngsters all have plenty of improvement in them. That's a heck of a roster IMO. Just about all of these are England Academy internationals.

Absolutely true that not all the young lads will make the grade, but all the players mentioned above (I could add Sinfield, Gatus, Simpson) are 22 or under.

For me I want to see us come out of the gates next year with the intention to create an impact on the competition. No excuses with a fit, first choice side. We should be dishing out some hidings to lower sides and mixing it with the big boys in 2022.

Are dual reg and reserve team back next year?

Reserves are back...not sure about dual reg

Nobody ever mentions McKenzie Turner when talking about youngsters. Fastest player at the club. 6 footer, catches high ball way above his head. Hes a far better prospect than Tindall and possibly Gatus, as a winger, for me.

There are a couple of lads under the radar at the moment you're right.

I know you don't rate Tindall - I'm not sure he'll make the cut either but I'd like to think we have a winger in the junior ranks somewhere who will come through in the next couple of years.

Doesn't Max Simpson have some gas as well? We're going to have too many centres to fit in pretty soon.

Actually thought Gale looked ok playing for Fev.
Although I understand some Fev fans don`t see him as a SL player just yet.