Technicalities...



On a more serious note I did say sometime ago that Delaney plays like a prop with good leg drives; Bailey less so. I know that this is not all that is required to make a good prop, but Bailey does have much better effect IMO out wider. Like the Catalans run, I will always also remember the try he made for Watkins in recent years at Craven Park. Bailey is pretty fast and powerful, [i[uwhen[/u[/i into his stride.

I flagged that exact same point with Juan and got this reply:

"How he received the ball on this occassion is not the point."

It is no surprise when tvoc misses the rugby point, but I expect more from you BB. That Bailey broke the first line was a something of rare sight as he is currently somewhere at the bottom of the tackle busters table. Whether he did actually break the first tackle or whether it goes down as a missed tackle is not my point or how indeed he received the ball.

My point was how effective Bailey was when once into his stride and how best to try and replicate it. Playing wider out would IMO provide much more chances for busts and long striding runs. But perhaps you have grown used to seeing him on the bench and trundling up the middle while the first choices take a rest

. Or maybe you suspect it was a one off....... such a lack of confidence in your hero is a shock BB!!

Practice doesn't really match up to reality. In attack for most of the season he has hung out wide, swapping between the left and right hand side, second row position. IMO Bailey's form was better with ball in hand last season in the traditional prop position. I prefer him down the middle.

And it's no surpise when you take one situation out of context and try to fit it to a viewpoint you're trying to advance despite it actually supporting the more rational alternative viewpoint. Who were the Leeds on field props (waiting in the prop positions) at the time of the McGuire try ? What prevents a prop playing in the prop position finding a weak defender and busting his tackle and then running fifty metres while busting two more tackles and provide a try-assisting pass ..... when he wants ?

You say that Bailey is somewhere 'at the bottom of the tackle busters table' yet in terms of the Leeds props he is second only to Peacock both in terms of quantity and average per game in this season's SL.

He'll be no doubt disappointed to have lost his number one position amongst the Leeds props from 2011 but he's been used differently at times during games this season and that's obviously going to effect his contributions as he adapts to the differing challenges. Referencing to last season, Bailey made the same number of tackle busts in one twelve second burst on Friday as Cross made in his entire Leeds career.



Isn't this where your head-coach Nanty (the ideas man) usually says something like 'Bailey should replace Hall on the wing' ?

There's two things Juan loves:

Ben Cross + Bri Mac.

On the whole amazing Bailey run thing, Juan's beloved Mac said after the game about it that he missed the start of his break just saw him rampaging down the middle. Then he added it would be a while until another 'PROP' does that again.

Says it all.

So what you're saying is that if people insist on using stats to support their arguments, they would be wise to check that the stats actually support their argument first?

In your quest to try and win cheap points you cannot keep to the clear rugby argument I put forward. ie that Bailey could have more chances to get into his stride if played in 2nd row position.



The answer is nothing prevents it, but it rarely happens. What Bailey showed is that unlike most props he has some pace and a long stride and is difficult to stop at full pace.

In the regular SL this season Bailey scores a Zero for clean breaks for Leeds (bottom of the table) he is also a poor performer in metres made making only ONE metre more than Kirke in the regular SL season with Griffin (in what may regard as a dissappointing season from him) making 50% more metres, Kylie 100% more and JP more than 170% more metres than Bailey. As for these tackle busts that you mention Bailey lags behind JP, Kylie, Kirke, and Griffin. So in most of the key criteria of the props job spec.. Bailey falls short. His is a consistent tackler a key requirement of a 2nd rower.



Yes as I said Bailey is at the bottom of our tackle bust table. But you are off at a tangent again. I am not critical of Bailey's tackle count. But you may need to check your stats as in SL this year (for our props) JP is credited with 698 tackles, Kylie in second place with 449 and Bailey third with 425 (8th overall). Delaney deserves a mention as top tackler overall with 769.



Trying to play to the gallery are we? I do not think he made the No 1 prop contribution last year. Just compare him with Kirke last year. Bailey made 20% fewer tackles, same metres exactly, one more carry, one less marker tackle and 30% less average gain than Kirke.

This season although down on the team sheet sometimes as a loose forward, he has in fact has played as a 3rd prop with a job of defending the ruck area to relieve Burrow (at 9) of defending the middle.

Seeing as you mention Mr Cross. He has made more metres, more carries, more marker tackles, more clean breaks and has a better average gain than Mr Bailey this season.




Scoff all you like but Bailey made his name as a 2nd rower and IMO could be more effective with a return to that position. Whereas Delaney is top tackler and marker tackler, 2nd top for metres and carries and 3rd best for tackle busts and makes clean breaks and plays more like a prop than Bailey does.

Which is what I did and they do



:

My opinions are intended to play to no-one. People are free to take, leave, ignore, laugh at or challenge them as they see fit.



If your point is that Bailey made 20% fewer tackles compared to Kirke while playing in 30% fewer games compared to Kirke (during the 2011 SL Regular Rounds) then I'm surprised if you think this reflects poorly on Bailey when compared to Kirke. The same goes for metres, carries and marker tackles where it appears, based on your own figures, that when averaged per appearance Bailey achieved the better of the two sets of hand-picked stats. If it was your intention to undermine Bailey the prop why have you produced a comparison that appears to have the opposite effect?

=#0000BFAnd you'll have to explain how this final stat works. It may just be me but I'd interpret ‘average gain’ in one of two ways. It’s either a figure per carry or it’s a figure per game. Both could be valid measures in there own right although minutes played would be necessary in the latter case given you’re comparing props and game-time can vary markedly from player to player.

You're claiming Bailey managed to achieve 30% less ‘average gain’ than Kirke after apparently running the same number of metres from an (almost - as near as makes only a fraction of a difference) identical number of carries. Can that be accurate ? or am I missing something here.

With regard to the 2011 Sl season. You made the claim the Bailey was our No 1 prop. My answer to this bit of comedy was to compare his contribution for the season with Kirke (generally regarded as our least effective prop) and you can see the results. The theme continues this season as I pointed out.

I have always understood that Bailey fulfilled a role in the squad but I have always had doubts that about his ability as a prop. His consistent tackling is his main strength and his lack of go forward his main weakness. IMO he is also too easily tackled as he rarely takes the ball in at speed with pumping legs and so is not a good tackle buster. I believe that the props main function is to drive forward and put the team on the front foot so we can release our talented half-backs and backs.

However on the positive side RB has pace when in his long stride and is capable of longer minutes on the field - both of these attributes are ideal for a 2nd rower plus of course tackling consistency. QED

The average gain stat is from Opta. I have previously questioned how they arrive at this figure and am still no wiser. I can only assume they discount sideways metres and perhaps take away backwards metres and the maybe take away the number they first thought of.

Then you mis-understood the context for my comment. I'll try to be clearer next time so we can hopefully avoid this confusion.

=#0000BFYes I can but can you? Bailey's averages per appearance in 2011 were generally higher than Kirke's in the categories you chose to highlight. Now there may well be valid reasons for this but you don't say what these are and I imagine you have no way of quantifying their effect without also knowing the game-time minutes played. So what's left is inconclusive at best, completely irrelevant at worst.



And you're fully entitled to your opinion. =#FF0000But you're the Opta fan around here and according to them Bailey is not the bottom of the list as you have incorrectly claimed and indeed he has only been bettered by Peacock in that category amongst his fellow Leeds props, in the most recent examples made available courtesy of the Stobart SL website covering the 2011 Regular Rounds and 2012 all matches (excluding Challenge Cup and WCC.)

Over that two year period Bailey has averaged better than Leuluai, Kirke, Cross, Burgess, Griffin and Moore while they've been in the same squad.



Perhaps. It's hard to disagree that Bailey is multi-talented but does he have the hands or the awareness to give the ball when it's on or will he just continue in prop mode trying to physically dominate his opponent. Bailey, I believe, would have opened the scoring at Wembley in 2010 had he not decided to monster Mathers instead. That is often to be found in a prop's mentality and it's regularly been witnessed in this one, so I'd have reservations not least because of that by now ingrained character trait.



And despite that you still felt it worthy of inclusion? Surely if you're going to use it you ought to be able to explain how it works otherwise as useless stats go it must sit pretty near the top.

You took the trouble to calculate that it shows Bailey underperforming Kirke by a significant amount in 2011 yet you have absolutely no idea how it is calculated as just like me you can't figure it out. That's why I wouldn't use it just as I didn't use the equally unfathomable team missed tackle stat from the Engage SL website previously. I collated my own data from the individual stats instead.

On the other hand an average gain that we both can understand shows Bailey fractionally behind Kirke on metres per carry (and we're talking millimetres of difference here per carry - as if anyone would trust Opta to that degree anyway) while at the same time recognising Bailey carried the ball just over 41% further per appearance so as you said earlier yes I'm sure we can all see the results.

Well done to Bailey for standing up to those evil Warrington bullys at the end of tonights game

classic Bails

Funniest moment of the night. Warrington have an outside chance to win the game if they score in that set yet are attacking with 8 men against 12 defenders as bailey takes care of the other 5. Loving the long wide pass to...erm...no one!

it was brilliant. Did anyone throw a punch at Bailey?

Don't think so. I'm disappointed how little Sky showed of the incident!

I was actually laughing before the ball went into touch and even more so afterwards!

I just remember the pass been thrown by Wire player (was it Riley?) and the big gap where he expected a team mate to be!

if any other player had gone over the top of Myler like that he would have got up and carried on, maybe linked into the Warrington line and possibly set up a try but because it was Ryan Bailey the 5 players decided the tackle warranted retaliation! its pathetic really.

Worked out nicely! He does what he wants!

That was a comedy moment. I know they were in desperation mode by then but who throws a pass wide like that without looking to see if anyone there.

Classic Bailey loves a scrap once the GF result is beyond doubt

There was no-one within 20 metres of where the pass was thrown to, one of the funniest moments I have ever seen on a rugby pitch made all the more funnier by the fact that at the moment I knew we'd won the Grand Final - in the seconds before then Warrington were on a charge to repeat the last five minutes of the first half.

Classic Bailey, absolute classic Bailey.

I imagine Bailey was saying to Warrington 5, "while your trying to sort me out chaps, I'm winning another ring and by the way that's a good pass into touch"

He does make me chuckle. Some may say he's arrogant in the way he celebrates but I disagree. He's leeds through and through and the way he celebrates on the pitch is the way he'd celebrate in the stands.

At the end of the 'meeting', Bailey actually laughed and pointed at his very pink boots...does anyone know what that was about?

I noticed that OR very funny!