That's excellent, and not just for a debut.

What were Kirkes stats for his 5 drives?

He took the ball in off a couple of drop outs and and kick offs so that will distort those stats slightly.

I thought Baldwinson did very well on Friday night and he looked very strong taking the ball up, He definitely looked a SL quality player As we have all read previously regarding supposed NRL interest in him, this article in today's Y.E.P touches on it right at the end, It would be very sad day for the club if he left, but you can't blame anyone for trying their luck out there www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/s ... -1-5779766

I thought Baldwinson did very well on Friday night and he looked very strong taking the ball up, He definitely looked a SL quality player As we have all read previously regarding supposed NRL interest in him, this article in today's Y.E.P touches on it right at the end, It would be very sad day for the club if he left, but you can't blame anyone for trying their luck out there www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/s ... -1-5779766

I wonder who the other lads NZ are looking at are.

Quote ="The Biffs Back" It would be very sad day for the club if he left, but you can't blame anyone for trying their luck out there www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/s ... -1-5779766'" Nope, but you can blame the club for not having the foresight to see his talent and tie him down much earlier. I personally called for Baldwinson, Tonks, Minchella, and Foster, to be tied down at end of last season and given the odd games this season to be in the future pack at Leeds. It really wasn't hard to see.

Quote ="The Biffs Back" It would be very sad day for the club if he left, but you can't blame anyone for trying their luck out there www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/s ... -1-5779766'" Nope, but you can blame the club for not having the foresight to see his talent and tie him down much earlier. I personally called for Baldwinson, Tonks, Minchella, and Foster, to be tied down at end of last season and given the odd games this season to be in the future pack at Leeds. It really wasn't hard to see.

Hmm do you know that the club hasn't attempted to tie them down earlier?

To be fair if the player wants to go to Aus then the club can't do a lot; they won't compete on salary and if the lads already have it in their heads that this opportunity could be available then it's likely our attempts to offer a contract would fall on deaf ears.

That wasn't the issue. It is only recently that clubs from Aus have come over and spoken to players. It wasn't there earlier, and that was the point.

Probably gives some reasoning as to why Barrie McDermott was so dissapointed over these players not getting opportunities when I spoke to him at the Cas cup game.

Have the club (Leeds) not made him an offer?

The water carrier came on twice and made him change position at the kick off so he could take the first drive.

I was very impressed with the brief stint from Baldwinson. I get where Gotcha is coming from in terms of Leeds tying up the youngsters (ooh er) but aren't we constrained by salary cap limits on Academy prospects? What are the rules?

If the lad wants to try his hand over there I do not blame him one little bit. It's a no brainer from his point of view.

I do think the coach doesn't utilize his quad properly and I do think opportunities to young players are usually only given when forced upon him by injury. Had Baldwinson played a little more might it be harder for Australian clubs to lure him over?

One thing strikes me though. I get the Australian clubs have a lot more cash but what about there much vaunted junior development? There are no extra franchises and us Poms are taking up an awful lot of jerseys.

Which successful SL teams do more in this regard? Is this proposition evidence-based?

I don't recall specifically saying you were wrong. Point being why, after a game, people spend so much time blaming players for tries being conceded or mistakes made. Fair enough people have a right to say what they want, what I can't understand is why it's often so negative. There's so many like this in the South Stand who just seem to rip players. And it makes for an unenjoyable and frustrating match day for the people around.

Yeah, they'll make mistakes and some more than others. But I don't see the benefit of discussing it on here page after page. I, and people I've spoken with, thought Kirke played well. So I was surprised to see people analysing him so in depth.

That was my point G1. Lately these message boards just seem to be pure negative. Someone gives an opinion and they're shot down. If everyone in sport did everything right it would be pretty boring. So why not talk about Sutcliffe's steps for his try and setting up Robbie. Hardaker stepping up in the absence of Mags and Kev and having his best game in a while. Joel Moon's out the back pass to Ryan for his try. JJB being a monster all over the pitch. McShane controlling from dummy half. Robbie looking like the player of old and driving Widnes back with his kicks.

But then Barrie, as head of youth development, would say that wouldn't he? Whereas Brian Mac is responsible for producing more silverware in SL which means picking the side which offers the best chance of winning each game. Over a season there will always be injuries that give opportunities to the youngsters as we are now seeing.

I understand that the coaches and management rate Baldwinson highly and I will be most surprised if the lad doesn't know that. The backrow department in the 1st team squad is strong and therefore the coaches have been able to take time with his development, which so far looks to have been a good plan. If the lad wants to go to Oz then having a few extra 1st team games before now would not have changed his mind. In fact it would have showcased him off so that he may have received more offers from down under.

To fit into the Leeds Champion ethos we need not only talented young rugby players but also ones whose burning ambition is to win a place in the first team and to do this they need to also show patience, loyalty and perseverance. The mentality side of professional rugby cannot be underestimated and a Leeds 1st team place should not be offered too easily.

A discussion board is for discussion. If we all agreed, and used it to just backslap at how great we are this would be a boring place. As it happens theres always a thread about someone being poo, someone being better than expected, someone's pre-match prediction coming correct, someone being made a fool of. thats why its a popular board, because we can discuss things, and even if we don't agree, we can accept others opinions.

More of a calves man is he?

JC-Telling the lad how highly rated he is and showing him through gametime and contract offers is totally different this batch has been "highly thought of" since their u16 days.
Also are you saying that kids as good as Baldwinson and Singo et al should just wait whilst the club re-sign kirke ,Kylie and give deals to Vickery??and hope for a sniff when we have 6/7 or as Friday 10 players missing??
I'm sorry but not everything the Club and Coach do is spot on or should be accepted because of the last decade.
We have an ageing pack and players amongst them that need rotation we've sorted 95% of the backs in terms of transition but its not happening in the pack where it's not hard to see it's what's required.
Baldwinson ,Singleton ,Sutcliffe ,Minchella et al should be on MINIMUM 2yr deals already and imo the fact they aren't as yet is poor by the club.
I hope we can fend off interest and get them signed up asap and see them get more gametime because if not there'll need to be some serious recruitment all at once bite us very soon.

Whilst I can understand the clamour for 2 year deals for these players, there is nowhere for them to go after u19's unless they become part of the 25 man squad. My understanding is that there are only5 players allowed on dual registration and if you have a 25 man squad you wean to use those players to keep them match fit.

Thank Christ someone has mentioned this. I spend more time trying to explain the game to these geeks than actually watching it. I made my thoughts about what I think of Kirke clear to my pal I was stood with and a lass turned round and said 'Well he has got 5 Grand Final rings and you couldn't do his job'............Deary me the days of having a good conversation on all things RL in the South Stand are long gone. Rugby League did start in 2004 you know!

You also need to accept when he has a poor game - something you find almost impossible - the CC semi against Wigan is an example of your inability to see what others can. JJB almost singlehandedly lost his team mates the game. Your reasoning was some half-baked gossip from Stanningley that it was his job to mark Tomkins which somehow exhonertated his abject efforts on the day.

His performance on Monday was well above the standards he has been punting out this season which has been average for the most part of the season. Concerns about his defence close to the line and number of penalties he conceeds cannot be ignored. His effort can never be criticised but you need occasionally to take those blinkers off.

Baldwinson is a prop/second rower.

At the start of this season he had Peacock, Leuluai, Bailey, Kirke, Moore, Griffin, Singleton, JJB, Ablett, Clarkson, Achurch and Ward in front of him for probably 8 spots in the matchday 17.

If he didn't acknowledge and appreciate that he would need to be patient and that it might require some injuries to those ahead of him before he got a shot at the first team then he wasn't being realistic IMO.

If he goes to NZ, that's a long way to go to be on your own and probably running around in one of their feeder clubs for the next two years. He's not George Burgess, not yet anyway. He's not going to walk into their first grade side IMO, so what has he got to gain from playing reserve grade out there?

The major questions to that post are

1. What does the start of the season have to do with May and June? Many games played during that time, form shown and should be based upon, and the player himself is a few months older and spent more time training with the first team.

2. Griffin went ages ago, Ward has been out injuired a long time, and have Kirke, Moore, Achurch, Clarkson, Bailey, really done enough this year to warrant that same pecking order that you had at the start of the season? if they haven't, and IMO they haven't, then what is the basis for what you put?

I'm surprised how hard some are being on Kirke. As a neutral, I thought he had a good game.
You can always pick up on individual errors if you are watching for him and already have him down as a poor player but I didn't see that.
I'd be interested to see his stats but he looked good to me.

Well the Vickery thread has gone off the bottom of the page now, so we need someone else to target for our bad run of games on. Kidding!

In terms of Kirke though - I always thought he was below par for Leeds. He has to be the softest rugby player for his size behind Karl Pryce - and Pryce is soft.

Someone mentioned about Achurch falling into the category of another disappointment - I have to agree with this statement too. He doesn't offer anything different for Leeds and he definately hasn't given anything to his Hunslet games. If he was playing for Hunslet week in week out Leeds would never have looked at him and thought "oh, he's a nice big promising chap, lets have him" - he would never have been signed.

Looks as though Leeds will need pretty much a new pack next year.

Highly thought of at 16 is one thing and only becomes relevant when a player is physically and mentally ready for SL which is wholly different.

With due respect rhinoms you keep making out you know better than the Champions professional coaches and management about player development and contract management. Are you also saying you are in possession of the full facts on each player? Are you saying you know the full facts regarding any contract discussions that may or may not have taken place. Are you saying you know what other recruitment options are being considered? This is a business they are running not a youth club.

As it is Singleton made his debut in 2011 and played for the 1st team again in 2012 and had dual reg with Dewsbury and this year with Wakefield who let him go after one game. He has been around the first team squad this year and now has his chance to prove his worth. What is wrong with that?

Kylie has been in great form this year and fully deserves the one year extention as with JP. Kirke also has been playing some of his best rugby and has been rated by several coaches as a steady benchman type reserve. and is arguably better this season than when he won all those GF rings.

The same with Sutcliffe he has now made about 5 1st team appearances after again being around the 1st team squad this year. This is how good development works. As a former junior coach I understand the responsibilties and difficulties in the jump from junior rugby to senior rugby. Despite your impatience you cannot just chuck them in after impressing in the under 19's there is far more to it than that in the players best interests. Also do you know for sure that Leeds are allowed to offer contracts to all these promising youngsters within the cap rules?

The best players in the ageing pack you speak of are currently the oldest and I would certaainly not be in a hurry to replace them. I am not privy to the contract or cap side of the business but the coaches have to make contract decisions at certain points in time and cannot take too many risks with promising youngsters. So often a 17/18 year old fails to fullfill that promise that previously looked so good.

Vickery was signed on a one year deal as cover for BJB after a 3 mth trial in which he also impressed and showed promise.

As I said before 1st team places at Leeds should not be easily attained and the youngsters should have to really fight for it. Ward, Singleton and Sutcliffe have done that Baldwinson and some of the others will get their chance too as cover for our injured players. Our system has done very well to produce such a good crop of youngsters so far so lets enjoy how it all pans out.

So much vociferous certainty in the face of the club's recent excellent record.

Are other teams in the sample group (successful SL clubs) doing things in accordance with this radical promotion of youth theory? Does anyone here have a detailed understanding of the contractual and salary cap constraints? Does anyone detect rumblings of discontent among the players about McDermott's cruel, unjust regime?