Agree about Stevie ward, singleton and Sutcliffe all came thru last season as genuine first team players. However, I think Leeds have brought through very few players in the 10 plus years before that. Abllett, Watkins and jones- bishop, can't think of any others. So no halves or hookers. Ablett came thru around 2006, ward was first back row forward in nearly 10 years. Singleton the first prop since Bailey around 2002. So if I take a half empty view, the academy failed to produce a prop capable of pushing kirke out of the team or a back row forward deemed a better option than achurch in a decade. the legend of the golden generation has kept alive a media endorsed myth that Leeds have constantly produced first team talent on an endless conveyor belt.

Oh I'm sure they'll have been plans but much harder to put in place and execute when you're going all the way to the GF and then spend a decent chunk of time celebrating what you did afterwards compared to the likes of Warrington who had a severe wake up call in 2015 similar to us in 2014 and whose season ended realistically one week into the Super 8's.

For all the planning about players retiring and replacements coming in and through. The one thing no one could predict was how 2015 turned out.

You've said before you're one for mindset, attitude and focus......how do you plan or go about going again (at the same level) after such a dream season? Having the required motivation when you've just fallen short is easy, having it (on top of retiring legends and a flooded training ground) when you've landed every trophy the year before is probably the biggest thing we've underestimated coming into this year.

Yes indeed, it looked promising for Leeds with half hour to go. I believe Widnes were ahead 32-6 at that stage.

Ward emerged as one of the best backrowers in SL imo along with Bateman, Sutcliffe and Singleton are both potential internationals if they fix up a couple of things in their game
We have produced more players than you think (Ryan Hall!), its just that our squads have been so strong (especially 2004-2009) that player have been moved on, such as Luke Gale who would never have pushed out Mcguire and Sinfield when younger but now should be playing for England

Sorry mate are your diamond shoes too tight?


I agree that Ward has the ability to be involved more with the ball, but I for one have no complaints with a player making 40 plus tackles most games with a ton of marker tackles and few misses!

Fair shout on Hall. Gale has really come on and take point he could not get a game when younger. We could do with his kicking game.

Also take point that we have had strong sides but the inability of academy to churn out any props or back row forwards, has resulted in a some less than great forays into transfer market, o'neill, cross, griffin, hauraki, Eastwood, achurch and probably others can't recall.

Probably in part reflects the wider challenges of SL trying to compete with NRL and Gh deciding he had to look down under to get quality he wanted or taking a chance on some of them.

If Gale had been given games when first coming through from academy, he wouldn't escape the exact same criticism Sutcliffe or Lilley will face this year.

Very easy to point to the 2015/16 Gale and say he could've been a starter for us. That's like judging our young halves on how good they'll be in 2021/22

No I couldn't predict one single kick in one single game as no one could.

I did say Leeds would be well in contention for trophies in 2015 and it was based on how we performed in those big cup games and I turned out to be correct.

You said we'd struggle because of the league games around those cup games, and you turned out to be massively wrong.

No dancing around the fact or trying to pass it off as blue and Amber specs will stop you from being massively wrong and me right.....and we all know how much you love knowledgable posters

Read somewhere that this injury crises at Leeds is unprecedented. Whilst we might not have won games, I think with McGuire on the pitch for the WCC, he would have unlocked the brilliant NQC defense a lot more often and with Ward in the team against Catalan last Saturday, Leeds would have been able to defend better. Both of them were sensational in those departments last year and are currently injured.

I'm not sure why anyone would be surprised that Leeds didn't bring a new halfback through over the last decade. With 3 halfbacks as mainstays of the team there'd be little benefit in fighting other clubs for talent, and if I were a kid through the recent period of success I would probably have looked elsewhere also.

OTOH I do think the lack of forwards coming through over the years (although Scruton, Burgess and Clarkson should be on the list as reasonable players) is pretty poor until Ward.

It could be that, but it seems a bit unlikely, more likley thing for halves is they got moved to different positions when they were in the later stages of the accademy as they would be pushing for a place in a team with 3 internationals
Such as Lee smith and Jordan Tansey who got moved to the wing, or even Stevie Ward who I believe was a stand off for the majority of his time in the academy? If Sutcliffe and Lilly were a few years older they may have been made Hookers or something...

Another reason for our lack of a production line academy for nearly a decade is that we havnt had a coach since Tony smith or Daryl Powell who wanted to promote youth players, when he was coach we would regularly have a young player on the bench to come on for a stint to see how they went, compare that to now where the only way a player gets a chance is through the injury of others

A good example of this is Tom and George Burgess who are props from our academy that we for some reason never put the work into developing properly and let bradford take them off us

Yeah I'd really love Smith and Tansey to have been controlling us around the park in the halves, considering the amount of times over the years I saw them in city centre absolutely battered (I had to pick an absolute smashed Lee Smith up off the floor of a VIP area just 2 weeks before the '08 GF) whilst Smith got MOM that GF I seriously doubt their attitudes/discipline would've been a recipe for long term success.

Appreciate gale had to move to develop and not saying we could/should have kept him.Think he has really improved at Cas.

Memory must be going Luke Burgess and Scruton slipped my mind. Be interesting to see who comes through and gets a chance with Cameron smith and the polish lad who is too much for predictive text.

Lots of kids come up through age group rugby as half-backs, simply because they're the best player at that club and coaches want their hands on the ball as much as possible. They lack the skill set to make a professional half back though, so end up getting shifted into different positions as their careers develop.

Forwards are a difficult one. For much of the last decade, the Leeds pack has had a pretty settled look to it with the exception of the odd one or two who have come in and gone out again. Peacock, Leuluai, JJB, Ablett have all been around along with the likes of Bailey and Kirke for most of that time. To break into the side and stay in it, any Academy product has had to be of the very best quality.

The thing is people have looked like they could be quality but we dont seem to have put the time in
2 years ago we have a few injured props and Mulhern and Minchella are given games- both looked okay
Then some second rowers got injured and we gave game time to Alex Forster- looked good and one of the bright spots in London 2014
Then we had a crisis in the hooking role and Robbie Ward given again- again looked okay and was vital in beating Leigh in that CC QF

But once established players were back all were quickly forgotten about and shipped either on loan or back to the 19s until we needed them again through injuries, not given nearly enough first team game time to really progress
In fact since about 2009 are there any players except Ward and Watkins who wernt only given a chance through injuries?

Can't beat people with knowledge - pity that doesn't include you.

In 2014 you said once they had got the monkey off their back they would kick on - they didn't did they!! so I would say your hit rate is patchy at best and more to do with luck i.e. McGuire's stroke of genius - than any superior knowledge you might have

What we see from you a spoilt little child who thinks its OK to hurl personal abuse when someone doesn't tow the line - a bully who doesn't like his views challenged. Someone who jumps up and down when they right but find a host of excuses when they are not. Not clever not even close to being on a par with many on here - grow up and realise you don't get it right even half the time.

Perhaps sometime spent attending games might keep you off here a bit and it might give you perspective - RL is a game, a form of entertainment nothing more.

Of those you've named though, where are they now? Mulhern might do alright at Hull KR. Minchella and Foster won't make it in SL IMO. Ward's off playing bush league in Australia.

Maybe it's not what the club did, maybe they just didn't have the ability to start with.

Yea but we never really gave them a chance, they couldve been great if we gave them a chance in our team but as soon as a more established player was back they were sent away
Weve also had the Gale and the Burgess twins in our set up but they wernt given a chance either and were shipped on, all three will be in the england squad at the end of the year

Could they have been great? Perhaps, the likelihood is not. Of course Leeds may have made a "mistake" on the retention of players, it's much more an art than a science, but considering none have really gone on to be top players suggests the club probably got it right on most occasions.

Re the Burgess twins, IIRC they rejected deals from Leeds and opted to move to Bradford. Whilst they had great reputations at the time they were still several years away from making first team rugby, so they don't really fit in with the argument that Leeds chose an established player over them.
As for Gale, which of McGuire, Burrow or Sinfield would you have got rid of in 2007/08 to accommodate him in the squad?

Also don't forget that plenty of Leeds academy products who were developed into regular first teamers left of their own accord.

My worry is the next Sinfield or Mcguire or Peacock doesnt get their shot and either ends up at another club o never hits their potential
Baldwinson was young player of the year in the Championship but three rounds in he still hasnt got a look in even with all the injuries, hes one of a long list who have captained their country at accedemy level but havnt become first team players, I dont think we're progressing them enough

I didn't say that in regards to the remainder of 2014 post cup final at all. In fact I said they'd spent so much of their focus getting the cup that once it was gone they could kick on in regards to the following season, I was one of the least surprised on here that they couldn't get up again after the high of Wembley.



Oh get of your high horse, you're the first to come charging in when someone's opinion is different and usually dismiss it as blue and amber specs and nothing more (note the "towing the party line" comment above) and say they had a lucky guess.

As for throwing abuse around, yes I did to William, a guy who spends 90% of his time on here insulting people yet you've got the hypocrisy to defend him when some gets thrown back his way. It's cringeworthy watching you defend him.

I see that because I don't attend some games it's a great source of concern for you (really you're just trying to have a pop to show me up.....ironic your bullying rant above then isn't it). If you must know I have been saving for and recently bought my first house, at this point in time I'm not going to travel to every single away game (only 3 last year) as I'm being financially sensible. I usually attend home games but missed a couple last year due to a mates 30th birthday one night and another friend stag do another. Sorry if these are unreasonable reasons for not attending as much as you would like at this present point in my life, I'm sure I'm not the only person who has a period in the lives when they can't attend as much as they would want to.

Printer- no need to explain yourself, there are plenty have their reasons for not going every week. I didn't miss a game home and away for over a decade pre SL but since have only been able to go sporadically due to being in the military and my subsequent job commitments and life in general getting in the way of being able to get there every friday night.

I apologise for butting in you and Sal's little spat but it really grips my S*!T when people start throwing around the 'loyal supporter' card when its not as cut and dry as that.I didn't realise you had to go to every game to have an opinion on the team you have supported all your life, or if you do it is somehow invalid to in some peoples eyes on here.

That's ok mate. I made some light hearted dig at how tvoc was only appearing on here last year after games we lost, Sal misread and thought it was about him and instead of accepting he misread it he's kept up this "at least I went/go"

I saw the twins a few times in Bradford's academy & saw nothing other than a couple of big lads. With a nice mum.