well,the new Wembley holds 90,000 i believe so 10,000 more than the old one at the end of its days.

We still get 75 to 85,000 which matches the old crowds and in my view is pretty much a sell out.Thats not to say alot of the older finals could not have been sold out twice over as the cup clearly meant so much more back then.

The Final itself, although it should always be a complete sell out IMO, is not the biggest problem facing the CC these days.

These are very good points that WE makes - the same has happened in soccer whereby the FA Cup is a second class competition to the PL which is qualifying comp for the Champions league. The romance of the competition is gone as there is no chance of team outside of the top 8 SL sides getting to the final. All concerned and I include the players/coaches see it as a hinderance in pursuit of the bigger prize - quite correctly - the GF.

It is a great day the final and it gives the sport much needed national TV coverage - that aside I am not sure what value it has anymore.

It's a huge factor. A better gauge of the popularity of the sport is to look at the attendances at games which really count - like knockout CC games and SL playoffs - attendances for these CC games and Semi Finals are embarrassingly poor these days. Moreover, attendances at SL play-offs have also nosedived sharply, particularly since the introduction of the Top 8 play-off system.

If the SL product was as fantastic as Sky, the RFL and the SL clubs claim it is, season tickets wouldn't have to be sold so cheaply. The SL clubs know the product and the structure of the regular season is not good enough to attract enough people for 13 games unless you give them a ticket for each game at a discounted rate.

Same applies to the CC Final too... it's flogged at a discount and hugely so in some cases... from free seat upgrades to the next category up to the "Wembley Wednesday" CC Final offers. I took advantage of that one in 2010 for the Leeds V Warrington final... the ticket cost just £10. Granted, it was a nosebleed seat on the top tier close to the back of the stand but it was still almost on the half way line. Prices like that create a culture where today's supporters are not used to paying on the day (due to cheap season ticket) or they expect a heavily discounted offer on ticket prices for one-off games.

As I alluded to earlier, the RFL and SL clubs marketing created this culture. If those who govern the sport and the clubs consistently devalue the sport with their cheapo discounts, they have to expect supporters to value the sport likewise.


I agree that lack of credible teams capable of winning these days is definitely another huge factor in the decline of the CC - I place it under the umbrella of "Super League to blame - killing off the CC slowly but surely" which has caused supporter apathy in the competition these days.

Realistically how do you revive the CC? Ever cheaper tickets are not the answer and just serve to further devalue it IMO.

I would start by moving it back so we play the early rounds in winter and the final in May.

If it's not on tv I tend to go to our games, especially if it's somewhere new or a team we don't usually play. Cost has to be an issue these days for many fans so any discount is to be welcomed.
I will repeat what I've posted elsewhere & agree with Bullseye, bring the cup forward & I'd go further to say replace the magic weekend with the cup final.

That would be a very good start, too long between rounds and too little between the final and GF imo

The CC as a competition doesn't seem to pick up momentum like it used too, it's too stop start with 6-8 weeks between rounds, when was the old final? was it this month?

The Magic Weekend is a Johnny Come Lately half baked idea that's hardly got the crowds flocking in. I've never had to pay for a ticket to go.

Replace it with the CC Final.

We agreed to move the CC in order that the BBC gave us better quality increased TV coverage. Have they kept their side of the bargain? If not there is even more reason to move back.

I go the SCC rounds anyway but other migh be more likely early on in the season when everyone's hungry for rugby to go to.

Used to be early May. Semi-finals were around this sort of time, maybe a week or so earlier.

IIRC didn't it get shunted back to late May for the first few seasons of the summer era, before finally getting moved back even further to August Bank Holiday?

Quick look on wikipedia (if its correct) shows most finals being played on the last weekend in april

Do you have any data to support the assertion that a larger percentage of attendees in the Super League era are season ticket holders than they were before 1996 or is that made up?

Those who have said the GF replacing the CC as the showpiece final are right, IMO. That is not necessarily a bad thing. I usually go to both each year and the GF night is a far better experience IMO.

I usually prefer the CC final as an experience as it's during the day and played at a time of year when the weather's better. It's not in Manchester so it's not guaranteed to rain.

Going to the challenge cup in Cardiff, Edinburgh and London makes it more of an event than Manchester which is just down the road.

I enjoy the Challenge Cup Final. But it has a relaxed day out atmosphere about it.

The Grand Final has a much more intense feeling. Feels like much more is at stake, which it probably is.

As for the rest of your points.

1. Wear a fleece
2. Stop trying to be a Mockney. At least it's Northern.
3. Buy a brolly or man up.

Since the 90's, always thought the Challenge Cup was a mickey mouse tournament, that was highly reliant on the luck of the draws.

When it was moved to August it became a very clear 2nd (4th in my eyes) best to Super League.

Moving it back to earlier season is a good start. As is having proper live draws again, preferably early evening on Monday's as they used to be. It just seemed to get more excitement going.

Would also be nice to see an Under 19's challenge cup competition run in conjunction with the seniors, and if possible play as double headers to the games, with a final at Wembley on same day again.

I think the timing of the final is actually about right, but rounds need to be closer together than they currently are, as there is very little buildup to the final.

One way of doing that would be to increase the draw from what it currently is to 64 teams, with it being an open competition that any number of clubs an apply to take part in, with this sort of structure:

Qualifying: Arrange fixtures to reduce to 142 participating teams

Round 1: 10 Championship One teams plus 142 Qualifying teams from any level of the game. After round, 76 teams remain

Round 2: 24 Championship & Elite one teams join, 100 teams participate. After round, 50 teams remain

Round 3: 14 SL Teams Join, 64 teams participate. After round, 32 teams remain.

Round 4: Round of 32

Round 5: Last 16

Round 6: Quarter Finals

Round 7: Semi Finals

Round 8: Final

This means not only do you have a longer competition with more games, but the opportunity for attractive 'David v Goliath' fixtures increases. It also gives growing clubs each a stage where they are the 'big guns' in the round, and a chance of the prize of a home draw against Wigan, Leeds or Bradford etc.

1. A fleece? I am not your age yet so I have some fashion sense. Fleeces are for the over 60s.
2. If I tried being a Mockney in Cardiff or Edinburgh I'd get my head kicked in. Manchester is too near to be interesting.
3. No doubt the security would confiscate my brolly at OT as I'd be guaranteed to use it as a makeshift spear.

Live draws on BBC TV and 5 Live is a must.

U19s idea is a good one. It'd be good for the young players to experience a big crowd.

For the final, I think the days of the whole competition being early in the season made it more of a focus. Come late August, most top teams have got one eye on the play-offs. I couldn't swear that rounds were any better attended though?

Personally, I also much preferred Cardiff to Wembley. Both are great stadiums, but with the best will in the world, Wembley's in the middle of an industrial estate and the Millennium Stadium is in the middle of the bit of Cardiff where stuff actually happens.

At Wembley you either mill around the pubs around the industrial estate (there is, after all, bo diddly to do apart from drink round Wembley) or you disappear into the rest of London, which is fine but loses all sense of the Cup Final atmosphere.

The RFL could pull the "not enough balls in the bag" stunt again and double the coverage by having to hold the thing again.

It could be based upon the amount of contested top flight turnstile operations I have watched in operation over the years and my knowledge, based upon both conscious and semi-conscious recording of the clicking regularity of pre-paid, card-operated turnstiles by season ticket holders in comparison to the clicking irregularity of cash-only manually operated ones.

I trust you will leave those of us that aren't privy to all of the SL clubs attendance accounting details and close observation of their auditing procedures to continue to discourse in our own uneducated fashion the merits of discounted season ticketed attendances, the current form of attendees and merits of not having to pay more to watch a game as you do in exchange for cash at the turnstile. After all, if you're not privy to those issues and you believe such knowledge is required in order to proffer an opinion you would be a bit of a hypocrite to do so, would you not?

Would a simple "no" not have done?
ps little willy im again looking forward to you posting your Top 5 whipping boy rabble league table to your profile,no rush though do it when it suits your agenda of course

That's a spurious argument though - apart from being the whole nature of a cup competition, it doesn't change the fact that if you are the best through the rounds you will win: to get the trophy you either have to beat the very best or beat someone who has themselves beaten the very best (or so on down the chain). As with the play offs, if you lose, you don't deserve to win.

Too many Leeds fans dismiss the CC primarily because Leeds continual fail to win it. Complaining about the format of a tournament, claiming that one way is "hard" or another team's route is "easy" is the approach of Wigan fans regarding the play offs. The reality is whatever the draw throws up, you beat it or you don't win the trophy - and don't deserve to win.

Translation........You made it up.

Lesser posters may not have seen through your bluster but what appeared on the face of it to be a reasonable argument was built on completely specious assumptions based upon nothing more than your imagination.

HTH etc.

I wasn't aware you'd provided any evidence for your assertion that "supporters" were to blame for being too tight-fisted and were holding the game back. Thanks for gracing us with your earlier specious assumption based on nothing more than your imagination... hypocrite.

HTH, ad nauseam.

Top5 -----Played---Won----Drawn----Lost----Points
Leeds -------4--------4--------0---------0--------8
Wigan -------4-------2--------1----------1-------5
Warrington --4-------1--------1---------2-------3
St Helens ---3--------1-------0----------2-------2
Catalans ----3--------0-------0----------0-------0

A very interesting little mini league you've compiled there Him,I wonder if this is the reason why little willy hasn't bothered doing one?