I do know my place Batley. Unfortunately, austerity measures will necessarily lead to a reduction in the availability of both nurses and lube.

While you're content waving the national flag and urging everyone to stick together for the good of the country, just remember this is a crisis of capitalism caused by speculative financial spivvery of the worst kind within the private sector which is now... conveniently for some... being played out as a crisis of over-spending in the public sector.

And when the austerity measures really kick in hurting the most vulnerable in society, I do hope any flag-waving jingoism on your part in response to any potential strikes, anarchy and unrest on the streets does not descend into scapegoating easy targets like the poor, the unemployed, the sick, single mothers and immigrants.

I like the saying and it is quite accurate!

Its interesting to have the benefit of hindsight and see what the politicians and financiers were saying before last years general election ... [urlhttp://www.labour.org.uk/the-tories-putting-the-recovery-at-risk[/url and while the 2011 Labour budget was already written and in the public domain and described as a budget to maintain the economic growth that we were seeing at the time whilst considering reductions once the economy was stronger, we can see that the likes of Vince Cable, the man who sounded like he knew what he was saying while there was still no chance of him ever having to walk the walk (how he must have s[ihit[/i himself when the prospect of the coalition arose), also opposed huge swathing cuts for 2011 and even Cameron himself was quoted as being cautious.

How on earth we ended up electing a duopoly who hadn't actually announced their economic intentions prior to the election is beyond me.

because after years of brown and liar smarmy blair people had had enough.
had labour had a charismatic,clever leader they would have got in again. as it was they were a shambles

You're probably right there, the next election is theirs to lose but they haven't found a figurehead yet...

i'm not yet convinced by cameron but to be fair he needs time. he inherited a mess.however there was no real alternative which the vote showed. nobody knew who not to vote for

I haven't made any assertions that this wasn't a crisis driven by completely irresponsible and thoroughly greedy bankers, so I'm not sure why you feel the need to remind me of something I already know.

For the record, it's appauling that the vulnerable in society will be under more pressure now than they were previously. They need support, not criticism, however they also need to help themselves too wherever possible.

Given the perilous financial state we are in at the moment, do you think it would be wise for us to see mass strikes and walkouts? That's what you seem to be advocating to me?

A more pertinent question might be...

Given the perilous financial state we are in at the moment, do you think it would be wise for us to bail out the latest crisis of capitalism just so that the bankers and the financial spivs can do it all over again? That's what you seem to be advocating to me.

What is your problem with people having the freedom and the right to withdraw their labour anyhow?

You are right it would be a pertinent question, however what are the realistic alternatives? Without every country having the same approach to the financial spivs (as you lovingly call them) such that they don't just bail out of Britain at the first opportunity, how exactly do you suggest we hold them to task over their ridiculous behaviour? I don't like it any more than you do, but I don't see any realistic alternative that wouldn't have horrendous consequences for the country's economic prospects for recovery.

Oh and I don't have any issue with people having the freedom and right to withdraw their labour, I just don't think it would help at the moment.

I signed this petition outside an Asda in Castleford I think. I remember me and our lass driving towards Oulton and ending up somewhere near Cas eating at a Chinese buffet with a Asda over the road. I signed it 4 times using different names.

Rebellllll.

Gary at the previous election Labour said we would all get a vote on the EEC membership until it came to the crunch!! Anyone who takes the manifesto seriously needs a labotomy to see if there is anything inside their skull.

Labour did not want to cut public sector spending yet didn't have a strategy for boosting growth - as I said earlier hope is not a strategy.

I'm merely establishing exactly where you stand on these issues.

In your opinion...

1) We all get shafted by the financial spivs (appropriate terminology which appears to upset you for some reason?) who gamble away our money and our wealth, then bugger off with huge bonuses whilst not being held accountable for their actions so they can recharge their batteries and do it all over again.

2) There is no alternative - Thatcherite political philosophy in a nutshell.

3) Because there is no alternative, the most vulnerable in society must instead be held accountable and take austerity measures on the chin for the country (whatever that's supposed to mean) by not withdrawing their labour in dispute, or taking to the streets in protest in order to defend their communities, their rights and their livelihoods.

4) Capital has the freedom to withdraw and it will do so without a single care or thought for the consequences, yet you'd rather not see labour exercise the very same rights of freedom to withdraw itself in defence.

I believe that's a reasonable summary of your position.

I don't have the answers or the alternatives, however I'll always defend the rights and the freedoms of people to organise themselves in ways in which they deem fit in order to defend themselves against the latest capitalist onslaught... which rules me out of ever supporting any of the mainstream Labour, Tory or Lib Dem parties who... when push comes to shove... all sing from the same pro-capitalist hymn sheet.

Constructive as usual Keith, you don't have any answers, but are happy to look for an argument where one doesn't exist.

Keep knitting...

Oh and if you dislike capitalism so much, why do you live in a capitalist country?

Nice to see that you are quick to try to isolate the principles of others, whilst not having any yourself.

The only thing I've done is deconstruct all your alleged liberal posturings of concern to establish exactly where you stand.

That'll be on the side of capital then.

Feel free to get personal in response

This raises some very interesting points - having tried to organise labour in a unionised environment I can only say how difficult it is. Unite the union we deal with have seen all but one of the unionised sites in my firm close because they will not yield to what is required to generate a return.

In the end the firm will close the last site - the question that then needs to be asked is have the union done the best by its members? If the site closes the only people who will lose their jobs are the members not the union bosses - that is the tragedy.

An extreme example Scargill still believes the demise of a whole industry was worth the point of principle - the problem is he still had his income whilst all those who paid his wages were lemmings over the edge. What is really ironic is the lengths he is going to to protect his gratis flat in London - a typical socialist hypocrite

And so the scapegoats keep emerging whilst the real perpetrators of economic crises continue on and on...

I'm sorry to disappoint you, but I'm no daughter of a Grantham Greengrocer, no matter how much you'd like me to be.

Am I a capitalist? I believe that those who are willing to work hard for a fair living deserve to get on, so maybe I am, but I see nothing wrong with that. I also believe that those who are incapable of looking after themselves should be looked after by society, so maybe I am that liberal that you claim I'm not.

It's funny that you are still posturing about the devil in Blue rather than offering any reasonable, considered and enforceable alternatives to the current financial state, and trying to take the moral highground.

Does that count as a personal response?

So come on then Keith, what would you do to save the nation?

Come on Duncan - you are asking the impossible, he would have consult Noam - another super-rich socialist.

Swerve duly acknowledged



You've already acknowledged the current crisis of capitalism is the fault of capitalists, yet you demand that labour and the most vulnerable in society must behave instead, must be held accountable for the crisis and be duty bound to bail the system out because you see no alternative. You're political philosophy is drenched in liberalism is it not?

I've noted how careful you've been not to scapegoat anyone else for the current financial mess... like Unions, Union leaders, socialists (lol), working class people, the vulnerable, those in the public sector whose wages are milking the country dry when we can't afford it... etc. But only for as long as they behave themselves, YES?



I'm posturing about the devil in blue am I? You mean the Tories? Could'a sworn I'd already laid out my utter contempt and distaste for Tories, Labour and Lib Dems earlier as being cut from the same cloth.

Where do I demand anything? All I've said is that mass strikes and anarchy wouldn't help. I've even agreed with you that of course people should have the right to withdraw labour, but that I don't think it would help.

You keep trying to put words in my mouth, it's really helping to make you look clever. No, really?

Their strategy was to at least maintain public spending for this year in order to avoid a fall back into recession and if you look at the link I provided (albeit from the Labour party themselves) then Cable certainly thought it a reasonable proposition and even Cameron admitted that slash and burn in 2011 would be risky whilst at the same time offering no other firm strategy.

As for any party's manifesto are you suggesting that they are all so meaningless and that we should simply take a lucky dip in the ballot box - maybe we can get the National Lottery machines to decide the next election (certainly seems to have been the way the last one worked),

EEC vote ? To vote out of the EC now would be a bit like the kid who turns up at a party starving and in rags and then leaves halfway through having eaten all the cake and trifle and rifled through the hosts wardrobe - half of this country's infrastructure has been built on EC funding since the late 1970s, it was EC money that kept me in a construction job from '75 to '83 and most people in the north east would still be living in colliery rows (without the colliery's) if it wasn't for EC money.

They were still going to make the cuts - where did they think the growth in the private sector was going to come from to avoid going into a recession.

How many people actually read and take any notice of the manifesto? The vast majority of the public vote the way they have always voted - when was the last time you got a Tory in South Wales and Labour in Ascot!! The floating vote is a very small but important minority.

Whether it was right or not the vote on EEC should have gone ahead as promised - the fact it didn't shows the value of the manifesto.

Capitalism is far from perfect but the world has tried all the known alternatives and largely rejected them. Capitalists like Communists are just people with different views and as such make mistakes equally. It goes with being human. Its life and life isn't fair or perfect - but if you reject all those who at least try in their own way to make it a bit better and you fail to offer a postive alternative then you cannot be taken seriously.

Despìte your negative comments, it is capitalism that creates profits and wealth that are both taxed. It is this tax which funds to our whole society. With few exceptions the disadvantaged and vulnerable are better cared for in capitalist societies and it is capitalist societies than give out huge amounts of aid on a world wide basis for the disadvantaged and for help with national disasters.

Sure there were (and still are) greedy bankers and sure they made mistakes. Sure there were (and still are) also dumb politicians from both the left and the right who failed to control the greedy bankers and allowed the financial disaster to happen.

The latest world economic crisis affected all countries, however when it struck, the UK was in a poorer economic state than most other leading economies with our borrowing far higher than it should have been. So our "current financial mess" is the result of these serious world factors combining with a mismanaged domestic economy. We had failed to reduce our national debt sufficiently during a 10 year world boom when the times were good and we had continued as a nation, to live beyond our means.

None of this is the fault of the capitalist system but rather the fault of some of the people entrusted with the power.